News from Bree and other random discussions
Re: News from Bree and other random discussions
According to the Wikipedia article, the genus was named after the character in the Hobbit. Cool!
Re: News from Bree and other random discussions
True.yovargas wrote:If that was a low philological jest, I probably wouldn't want to know what a high one looks like.
'You just said "your getting shorter": you've obviously been drinking too much ent-draught and not enough Prim's.' - Jude
Re: News from Bree and other random discussions
Spotted in the Guardian website:
Like the Eye of Sauron: Western Europe's tallest building planned for tiny Danish town
Like the Eye of Sauron: Western Europe's tallest building planned for tiny Danish town
- Eldy
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Re: News from Bree and other random discussions
Seems rather foolish, if you ask me.
Re: News from Bree and other random discussions
So when Sauron temporarily perished in the drowning of Númenor, how did he manage to bring the Ring back with him in his disembodied form?
Is there any reference to him entrusting it to his Nazgûl for safe-keeping? But he expected to come back in his then-present form. At least in the version in HOME v.9, he was laughing right up until the moment he realized Númenor was about to be destroyed.
Is there any reference to him entrusting it to his Nazgûl for safe-keeping? But he expected to come back in his then-present form. At least in the version in HOME v.9, he was laughing right up until the moment he realized Númenor was about to be destroyed.
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Re: News from Bree and other random discussions
I have wondered that myself, and I don't have a satisfactory answer.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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Re: News from Bree and other random discussions
Okay, Tolkien actually addressed this very question, in Letter 211, to Rhona Beare, in October 1958:
Tolkien wrote:Sauron was first defeated by a 'miracle': a direct action of God the Creator, changing the fashion of the world, when appealed to by Manwë: see III p. 317. Though reduced to 'a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind', I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended. That Sauron was not himself destroyed in the anger of the One is not my fault: the problem of evil, and its apparent toleration, is a permanent one for all who concern themselves with our world. The indestructibility of spirits with free wills, even by the Creator of them, is also an inevitable feature, if one either believes in their existence, or feigns it in a story.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
Re: News from Bree and other random discussions
That sounds mostly like "I don't know, he just did, deal with it." Which is endearing, in a way. Personally, I imagine a floating shingle with the Ring on it, which the spirit form of Sauron tows along while being borne on the dark wind.
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Re: News from Bree and other random discussions
It's interesting to know that I'm not the only one that wondered about this specific thing...
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Re: News from Bree and other random discussions
Well, the specific question that Ms. Beare was asking was more like "how could Ar-Pharazôn defeat Sauron when Sauron had the One Ring. But others have certainly asked the same question that you asked, Jude. Michael Martinez addressed it on his blog back in 2013.
How Did the One Ring Survive the Downfall of Númenor?
And here is a related Reddit discussion thread from last year that touches on your question.
When Sauron's body was destroyed in the Fall of Númenor, his spirit carried off the Ring. Why didn't it do the same when Isildur destroyed his body a second time?
And some random person who also addresses the question.
36 What happened to the Ring when Númenor was destroyed? (Tolkien)
How Did the One Ring Survive the Downfall of Númenor?
And here is a related Reddit discussion thread from last year that touches on your question.
When Sauron's body was destroyed in the Fall of Númenor, his spirit carried off the Ring. Why didn't it do the same when Isildur destroyed his body a second time?
And some random person who also addresses the question.
36 What happened to the Ring when Númenor was destroyed? (Tolkien)
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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Re: News from Bree and other random discussions
Nothing to do with the previous subject(s) but I saw this video & couldn't but help being reminded of the Barrow Downs.
Last edited by RoseMorninStar on Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: News from Bree and other random discussions
That was fascinating. I had always pictured the Barrow Down as a single above-ground structure rather than an underground network. This may cause me to visualize it differently upon next reading.
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Re: News from Bree and other random discussions
I think I've always thought of it as plural. Is it not plural in the books? The Barrow Downs? I think of it as like a cemetery, a collection of single barrows (maybe they housed many individuals, maybe many chambered?) but that there would be many barrows, not just one underground network. Perhaps like the barrows of the kings in Rohan, this may have been where Arnor's greatest were buried?Jude wrote:That was fascinating. I had always pictured the Barrow Down as a single above-ground structure rather than an underground network. This may cause me to visualize it differently upon next reading.
The dumbest thing I've ever bought
was a 2020 planner.
"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
was a 2020 planner.
"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
Re: News from Bree and other random discussions
Yes, there were many, but I was thinking specifically of the one that the hobbits got trapped in.
- elengil
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Re: News from Bree and other random discussions
Ah right.
I think I pictured the barrow they were in as something akin to Maeshowe. A long entrance with a large chamber, with possible smaller side-chambers. But I can't really remember what I imagined when I first read it, to be honest.
I think I pictured the barrow they were in as something akin to Maeshowe. A long entrance with a large chamber, with possible smaller side-chambers. But I can't really remember what I imagined when I first read it, to be honest.
The dumbest thing I've ever bought
was a 2020 planner.
"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
was a 2020 planner.
"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
Re: News from Bree and other random discussions
I think I misspoke (mistyped?) when I said "Barrow Down". The Downs are a geographical feature (like North Downs, etc.). I should have said "The Barrow".
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Re: News from Bree and other random discussions
From the Tolkien Gateway:
I would say it sounds like a tumulus, an earthen mound built for burials, which can have chambers & passageways especially if constructed in limestone.
I decided to re-read 'Fog on the Barrow-Downs' in FotR. Tolkien uses a lot of structure imagery to describe the fog that rolled in over the barrows after they awoke from their unintended nap. Walls, ceiling. There are also standing stones, which Frodo seems to walk through (which reminds me of Diana Galbadon's 'Outlander') in which he seems to enter another world, but he can still see the stars. Then a tall dark figure towers over him and seemingly overtakes him and he remembers nothing. Later he wakes up in a barrow (presumably underground). Frodo's thoughts reveal that he lay upon cold stone. Sam, Pippin, & Merry are garbed in white and fitted with treasures, as for a burial. As Frodo glances about he notices a passageway connected to the chamber he is in. Later when Tom Bombadil arrives one end of the chamber falls in with a crash. It says Frodo climbs out. Treasure is laid on top of the barrow in the sunlight. When Frodo leaves the barrow for the last time (after helping Tom carry Sam, Merry, & Pippin out) he sees the ghostly severed hand wriggling in the fallen earth. To me, it definitely sounds like an underground structure intended for burial, but not something like we'd place a coffin in today. It would be more like the great mounds one might find in the UK, Ireland, France. OIn topography, a "down" is a low-lying hill, from the Anglo-Saxon dún meaning "hill".[9] In the United Kingdom, a down is a gently-rolling chalk hill in Southern England (seen especially in the North and South Downs).[10]
A "barrow" (or "berrow"; from English beorg, berg, 'hill, mound') not to be confused with the wheeled vehicle, is a tumulus or other prehistoric grave-mound.[11]
The name therefore would represent an earlier Old English form Beorga Dune "downs of barrows".[12]
Tyrn Gorthad was the Sindarin name of the Barrow-downs. Tyrn Gorthad is a compound of torn ("down") and gorthad ("of buried").[13] In one manuscript, the name Tyrn Goerthaid was used by Tolkien.[14] Goerthaid seems to be the plural of gorthad with affected vowels.
I would say it sounds like a tumulus, an earthen mound built for burials, which can have chambers & passageways especially if constructed in limestone.
Last edited by RoseMorninStar on Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
My heart is forever in the Shire.
- elengil
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Re: News from Bree and other random discussions
Wonderful summation, Rose! I had forgotten the wriggling arm Hilariously, though, that explains why they show up in the online game
The dumbest thing I've ever bought
was a 2020 planner.
"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
was a 2020 planner.
"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
- RoseMorninStar
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Re: News from Bree and other random discussions
Yeah.. the hand/arm is kinda weird.. like it was long & stretched out with nothing attached to it, but Frodo severed it from the arm. Creeepy.
My heart is forever in the Shire.
- elengil
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Re: News from Bree and other random discussions
While we're on the subject, this came up on my youtube suggestions:
The dumbest thing I've ever bought
was a 2020 planner.
"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
was a 2020 planner.
"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF