Trump's America

[RoseMorninStar]

That's a wicked quote Griffon. And too true. It makes me sad, most of all because it's so damn obvious and yet.. they cheer.

[Frelga]

We're in a "fall of empire" stage of history. I keep saying it and in response people make wide circles to avoid the crazy lady, but the evidence points that way.

Having seen it once, I tend to agree.

[RoseMorninStar]

We're in a "fall of empire" stage of history. I keep saying it and in response people make wide circles to avoid the crazy lady, but the evidence points that way.

Having seen it once, I tend to agree.

And did it have the same feel, Frelga? The same cheering by some while others looked on in horror?

[Frelga]

That needs a week's answer or none at all.

There was a more definitive point in time when everything has changed, for one thing - Brezhnev dying. Forces trying to keep the old groups in power and those trying to replace them had very different agendas from today's America.

On the other hand, there was a time, as there was here, when it seemed that the transition to the new could happen in a peaceful and positive way. And as ever, there was an attempt to redirect discontent with the larger system into the racial and religious differences. I have to say that in Ukraine, it largely failed, although it was still a toss up by the time we left.

PS one thing I will probably regret saying is that Americans are being a lot more docile about what's happening. This despite living in the system that is, or has been until now, a lot more forgiving about expression of dissent.

[RoseMorninStar]

Yes, a difficult question to answer. I would think the idea that 'it can't happen here' and the effectiveness of disinformation campaigns is something perhaps we are not used to as much as eastern Europeans? The internet is fertile soil for that and we should be teaching more critical thinking skills to combat the glut of (mis)information. The guardrails that have protected this country are being taken for granted and those who should know better (Senate, etc..) are abdicating their duty. It is frustrating.

[Alatar]

Who knew this was the bit of George Lucas' vision that would come true.

[RoseMorninStar]

Alatar:

[elengil]

I've been thinking about that quote a lot lately, actually.

[Frelga]

I was thinking about that exchange with Rose. FIL watches a Russian TV channel that runs old Soviet shows, concerts, and news programs. Today it was Brezhnev's speech at the 26th Congress of the communist party. It was full of confidence in the future of the Soviet way of life. I was a kid then, but I don't think many adults questioned the truth of it, even those who maybe weren't happy with it.

That was 1981. A year later, Brezhnev was dead and everything that happened happened, and here we are.

[RoseMorninStar]

These poor pigeons. https://abcnews.go.com/US/pigeon-protes ... d=69095552

[Maria]

How do they even get the hats to stay on? Glue?

[RoseMorninStar]

Yes. They glued the hats and wigs onto the poor little creatures.

[elengil]

Just wanted to share this here as it's a a good answer from the liberal side. (I don't think it's necessarily entirely fair to the conservative side, but it does address the conservative attack that "liberals hate America" very effectively)

Chris O'Leary, former 10 years of Active Duty at U.S. Marine Corps (1989-2000)

Question answered: Why do liberals hate the United States?

Here’s a good question.

Why do YOU hate the United States?

I’m serious.

Current polling data shows that more than 6 in 10 Americans do not approve of the job Donald Trump is doing and that about 57% actively disapprove. They dislike him so much that they make fun of him and say things like “He’s not my President.”

Presidential Approval Ratings -- Donald Trump

And you hate that.

But it's America.

You want a wall built across the entirety of the southern border of the United States, no matter how much it costs, no matter how many times you’ve been shown it’s not a cost-effective solution to border security, you’d rather deride any other solution as “open borders” even though it’s not. Yet current polls show that 56% of Americans don’t want the wall, they want Republicans in Congress and the White House to stop holding Federal workers, contractors and the good military men and women serving our country in the Coast Guard hostage and reopen the government.

Poll: Majorities oppose Trump's wall funding demand, call for compromise

You want that wall so much. So you hate that.

But it’s America.

In America, people express themselves in different ways, especially when they're trying to get a point across. They even do things that make you really angry, like kneeling during the National Anthem, to make a point about the way young black men are treated during interactions with police. Sometimes it’s football players on your favorite football team, and it makes you so mad you can't even enjoy football anymore.

Man, you hate that.

But even your favorite news network tells you that most Americans support their right to do so. Meaning it’s America. And you hate it.

Most Americans support NFL players' right to kneel: Poll

You hate that people want to do things that don't directly benefit you with the money you have to give the government out of your paycheck.

You hate that every day the meaning of the word equality seems to include more and more people, making you feel less and less in sole possession of the American Dream.

You hate that you have so few people anymore that it’s ok for you to feel superior to.

But it’s America.

I’ve been examining this odd idea that comes from the right that they have some kind of monopoly on patriotism for some time. The more I examine it, the more I see how little water it holds.

Liberals don’t hate America. Liberals love what America is and can be.

Conservatives wearing red hats with white writing love some strange perception they have of what it was at some point in the past.

In general, though, conservatives do love America. This is true.

But liberals do as well. The thing is, though, it’s a different kind of love.

Conservatives show their love of country with a sort of reverent respect, submission to an ultimate authority, in a way that’s best expressed by the phrase “Love it or leave it” In other words, take her as she is, don’t try to change her.

As one loves a parent.

As one who loves their parents unconditionally, through their faults. As an aging parent, but one who you can still see as the titan they were when you were a child. You wish you could see them in all that glory again.

Liberals love America a different way and in my opinion a more brutally honest way. Liberals love America as one loves a child. Something to be nurtured, grown, developed. Something that is not perfect, and needs a lot of work to be improved upon. And they are willing to do that work.

When you see liberals out in droves carrying signs, shouting and chanting, you look at them derisively and ask “Why do they hate America?”

That isn't hatred, my man. It is the greatest expression they can make of how much they love this country. In my opinion, it’s a much stronger expression of love for one’s country to get out and act to work on righting wrongs, improving conditions, standing up against injustice than to blindly wish things were like they were back in the ‘50s before the dirty hippies messed everything up. (I HOPE that’s as far back as you want to go.)

Maybe you should start to show her a little more love.

[yovargas]

Eh. Like most articles you see around, this feels like an article by a liberal for liberals, aka preaching to the choir. It's the kind of thing designed to make one group smarter and superior to another group. I don't disagree with any particular point there, but I do think that the prolification of this kind of thing from both sides is a huge part of why partisanship on both sides has gotten, and will surely continue to get, more and more partisan. And that increased partisanship, the increased "we are good, they are evil" attitude, is, imo, the biggest threat facing our democracy.

[elengil]

Like I said, I didn't think it portrayed the conservative side very well, but I think it was good as a response to the claim that liberals hate America.

[RoseMorninStar]

I think such messages are received differently depending upon which part of the country one happens to live.

[elengil]

The market tumble came hours after President Trump announced a 30-day ban on travel from European countries to the United States.

Good job, savvy business man.

https://www.npr.org/2020/03/12/81485389 ... virus-plan

[Dave_LF]

Naturally, the ban exempts his own resorts:
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/1 ... rts-126808

[Voronwë the Faithful]

If the GOP suddenly decides that Mr. Trump's incompetence is destroying the economy, will they force him out? Or at least abandon his reelection campaign?

[Dave_LF]

They've had ample opportunity to do that already, and chose not to.