News from Bree and other random discussions

[Jude]

According to the Wikipedia article, the genus was named after the character in the Hobbit. Cool!

[Inanna]

If that was a low philological jest, I probably wouldn't want to know what a high one looks like.

True.

[Jude]

Spotted in the Guardian website:

Like the Eye of Sauron: Western Europe's tallest building planned for tiny Danish town

[Eldy]

Seems rather foolish, if you ask me.

[Jude]

So when Sauron temporarily perished in the drowning of Númenor, how did he manage to bring the Ring back with him in his disembodied form?

Is there any reference to him entrusting it to his Nazgûl for safe-keeping? But he expected to come back in his then-present form. At least in the version in HOME v.9, he was laughing right up until the moment he realized Númenor was about to be destroyed.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I have wondered that myself, and I don't have a satisfactory answer.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Okay, Tolkien actually addressed this very question, in Letter 211, to Rhona Beare, in October 1958:

Sauron was first defeated by a 'miracle': a direct action of God the Creator, changing the fashion of the world, when appealed to by Manwë: see III p. 317. Though reduced to 'a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind', I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended. That Sauron was not himself destroyed in the anger of the One is not my fault: the problem of evil, and its apparent toleration, is a permanent one for all who concern themselves with our world. The indestructibility of spirits with free wills, even by the Creator of them, is also an inevitable feature, if one either believes in their existence, or feigns it in a story.

[Frelga]

That sounds mostly like "I don't know, he just did, deal with it." Which is endearing, in a way. Personally, I imagine a floating shingle with the Ring on it, which the spirit form of Sauron tows along while being borne on the dark wind.

[Jude]

It's interesting to know that I'm not the only one that wondered about this specific thing...

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Well, the specific question that Ms. Beare was asking was more like "how could Ar-Pharazôn defeat Sauron when Sauron had the One Ring. But others have certainly asked the same question that you asked, Jude. Michael Martinez addressed it on his blog back in 2013.

How Did the One Ring Survive the Downfall of Númenor?

And here is a related Reddit discussion thread from last year that touches on your question.

When Sauron's body was destroyed in the Fall of Númenor, his spirit carried off the Ring. Why didn't it do the same when Isildur destroyed his body a second time?

And some random person who also addresses the question.

36 What happened to the Ring when Númenor was destroyed? (Tolkien)

[RoseMorninStar]

Nothing to do with the previous subject(s) but I saw this video & couldn't but help being reminded of the Barrow Downs.

[Jude]

That was fascinating. I had always pictured the Barrow Down as a single above-ground structure rather than an underground network. This may cause me to visualize it differently upon next reading.

[elengil]

That was fascinating. I had always pictured the Barrow Down as a single above-ground structure rather than an underground network. This may cause me to visualize it differently upon next reading.

I think I've always thought of it as plural. Is it not plural in the books? The Barrow Downs? I think of it as like a cemetery, a collection of single barrows (maybe they housed many individuals, maybe many chambered?) but that there would be many barrows, not just one underground network. Perhaps like the barrows of the kings in Rohan, this may have been where Arnor's greatest were buried?

[Jude]

Yes, there were many, but I was thinking specifically of the one that the hobbits got trapped in.

[elengil]

Ah right.

I think I pictured the barrow they were in as something akin to Maeshowe. A long entrance with a large chamber, with possible smaller side-chambers. But I can't really remember what I imagined when I first read it, to be honest.

[Jude]

I think I misspoke (mistyped?) when I said "Barrow Down". The Downs are a geographical feature (like North Downs, etc.). I should have said "The Barrow".

[RoseMorninStar]

From the Tolkien Gateway:

In topography, a "down" is a low-lying hill, from the Anglo-Saxon dún meaning "hill".[9] In the United Kingdom, a down is a gently-rolling chalk hill in Southern England (seen especially in the North and South Downs).[10]

A "barrow" (or "berrow"; from English beorg, berg, 'hill, mound') not to be confused with the wheeled vehicle, is a tumulus or other prehistoric grave-mound.[11]

The name therefore would represent an earlier Old English form Beorga Dune "downs of barrows".[12]

Tyrn Gorthad was the Sindarin name of the Barrow-downs. Tyrn Gorthad is a compound of torn ("down") and gorthad ("of buried").[13] In one manuscript, the name Tyrn Goerthaid was used by Tolkien.[14] Goerthaid seems to be the plural of gorthad with affected vowels.

I decided to re-read 'Fog on the Barrow-Downs' in FotR. Tolkien uses a lot of structure imagery to describe the fog that rolled in over the barrows after they awoke from their unintended nap. Walls, ceiling. There are also standing stones, which Frodo seems to walk through (which reminds me of Diana Galbadon's 'Outlander') in which he seems to enter another world, but he can still see the stars. Then a tall dark figure towers over him and seemingly overtakes him and he remembers nothing. Later he wakes up in a barrow (presumably underground). Frodo's thoughts reveal that he lay upon cold stone. Sam, Pippin, & Merry are garbed in white and fitted with treasures, as for a burial. As Frodo glances about he notices a passageway connected to the chamber he is in. Later when Tom Bombadil arrives one end of the chamber falls in with a crash. It says Frodo climbs out. Treasure is laid on top of the barrow in the sunlight. When Frodo leaves the barrow for the last time (after helping Tom carry Sam, Merry, & Pippin out) he sees the ghostly severed hand wriggling in the fallen earth. To me, it definitely sounds like an underground structure intended for burial, but not something like we'd place a coffin in today. It would be more like the great mounds one might find in the UK, Ireland, France. O

I would say it sounds like a tumulus, an earthen mound built for burials, which can have chambers & passageways especially if constructed in limestone.

[elengil]

Wonderful summation, Rose! I had forgotten the wriggling arm Hilariously, though, that explains why they show up in the online game

[RoseMorninStar]

Yeah.. the hand/arm is kinda weird.. like it was long & stretched out with nothing attached to it, but Frodo severed it from the arm. Creeepy.

[elengil]

While we're on the subject, this came up on my youtube suggestions: