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 Post subject: What's in a name?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:32 pm 
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I split this off from the "Creative Prompt" thread in the Red Book forum.

elengil wrote:
Official Prompt #5: High Hopes

I am a great lover of Pink Floyd (though much to some people's dismay, I prefer the later works). One of my all-time favorite songs of theirs is High Hopes. Such strange lyrics...

So my prompt this time is to take one line from the song and use it as your inspiration. You don't have to use the line itself in your work but it should inspire it.

Lyrics
Beyond the horizon of the place we lived when we were young
In a world of magnets and miracles
Our thoughts strayed constantly and without boundary
The ringing of the division bell had begun

Along the Long Road and on down the Causeway
Do they still meet there by the Cut
There was a ragged band that followed in our footsteps
Running before times took our dreams away
Leaving the myriad small creatures trying to tie us to the ground
To a life consumed by slow decay

The grass was greener
The light was brighter
When friends surrounded
The nights of wonder

Looking beyond the embers of bridges glowing behind us
To a glimpse of how green it was on the other side
Steps taken forwards but sleepwalking back again
Dragged by the force of some in a tide

At a higher altitude with flag unfurled
We reached the dizzy heights of that dreamed of world
Encumbered forever by desire and ambition
There's a hunger still unsatisfied
Our weary eyes still stray to the horizon
Though down this road we've been so many times

The grass was greener
The light was brighter
The taste was sweeter
The nights of wonder
With friends surrounded
The dawn mist glowing
The water flowing
The endless river
Forever and ever




It's a great song, but it is not Pink Floyd. Pink Floyd without Roger Waters is like a PB&J sandwich without peanut butter. It's tasty, particularly since it is made from home baked break and fine organic strawberry jam, but it is still missing an essential ingredient. (For the record, I'm at least as much a fan of David Gilmour's as I am of Roger Waters.)

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:57 pm 
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Well, I've never much cared for peanut butter, so.... :P


I'd like to tell you a story about Division Bell. It came out around, what 20 years ago? I had a boyfriend at the time who was super into music, it was one of his passions. I love music, I adore music, I am pretty ignorant when it comes to *about* music. Especially back then, before the internet was huge and music was experienced mostly on the radio where they would play 5 or 6 songs in a row and you may not necessarily ever catch the song title or group...

So here I was, dating a guy who could give you all this minutia of little facts and trivia about bands and songs and this and that and I was all "Oh hey, I love this song! Don't know who it is or what it's called but..."

One night he was so frustrated with me doing that he sat me down in his car and put the radio on and we played that 'game' for song after song after song. I knew the songs, I could sing along with them, I just didn't know who did them usually or what the names were.

Until one song came on and I cocked my head sideways and got this quizzical look on my face and said "I've never heard this song before..." and listened to a few more notes of the intro before the singing started. Then declared very confidently "But this is Pink Floyd."

I think he gave up on me after that.

So, Mr Voronwë, I beg your great pardon, but if it was Pink Floyd enough for even me to recognize it instantly as Pink Floyd even having never heard the song before, before I even knew there was a new album out, then it is very much Pink Floyd, even if a certain member was no longer part.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:47 pm 
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:swordfight:


:D

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:41 pm 
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I recognized it as David Gilmour as soon as I heard it. He has one of the most distinctive voices and guitar styles in rock history. But it still wasn't Pink Floyd.

What about Syd Barrett, you might say. After all, before he went insane, Syd was the main creative force in Pink Floyd, before David Gilmour even joined the band. But that was a relevatively short period of time and the quartet of Gilmour, Waters, Nick Mason and Richard Wright established the band's lasting legacy and sound over a long period, with Waters the prime creative force (and Gilmour not far behind), particularly with Animals, Dark Side of the Moon (possibly the most successful rock album ever), Wish You Were Here (perhaps the best rock album of all time) and The Wall (maybe the most meaningful rock album of all time). An analogy that I could make is with the Grateful Dead. When they started out, Ron "Pig Pen" McKernan was their main frontman, but by the time he passed away in 1973, the band had advanced to the point that they were like a jazz ensemble, though with Jerry Garcia as the most equal of the equal parts. When he passed away, the rest of the band continued to make music together, but they never called themselves the Grateful Dead. Pink Floyd should have done the same when it was clear that they could no longer all work together.

Actually, the only "Pink Floyd concert" that I ever saw was after Waters left the group. It was a great show with amazing music, the best light show I ever saw, and even the flying pig from Animals. But it wasn't Pink Floyd. I've seen several David Gilmour shows and several Roger Waters shows since, and I enjoyed all of them more. I actually had a chance to see one of the few shows that they did for The Wall, at Nassau Coliseum, but my sister gave her extra ticket to one of her friends rather than to me. I never forgave her.

They did all do one reunion show, at the London Live 8 benefit show in 2005.



After 24 years, it was still Pink Floyd.

Sorry to be long-winded, but I'm pretty passionate about Pink Floyd. As you can see. Needless to say, your mileage can and does vary.


(elengil, do you want me to move this whole discussion out of your creative prompt thread?)

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:51 am 
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V, I had tickets to the Wall concert too; and I didn't put it on my google calendar and booked my Paris campus visit at the same time. I never forgave *myself* for that... And R and my bro didn't go without me.... all 3 tickets were wasted :nono: When the Wall came back to NY, I was pregnant. :P

A few weeks ago, R and I watched interviews of Roger Waters when he did The Wall show (I have to say Jimmy Fallon was an embarrassment. They must be showing that clip in the UK to make a point about brainless US talk shows. :P). Anyway, in one of the BBC interviews, Roger Waters talked about leaving Pink Floyd and the lawsuit after that. How he realized (or the lawyers made him realize) that "Pink Floyd" is a commercial entity of its own, which he does not necessarily own. He also talked about the humbling experience on tour after that; how for his show the venue was empty, while the next day, the stadium next door was sold out for Pink Floyd.

Ok, so I'm not really taking one side or the other, here. But apparently, I cannot let a discussion of Floyd go by without piping in. :P They are an essential ingredient of my life.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:00 am 
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Quote:
V, I had tickets to the Wall concert too; and I didn't put it on my google calendar and booked my Paris campus visit at the same time.


I'm pretty sure in 1980, there was no such thing as a google calendar. ;)

Quote:
They are an essential ingredient of my life.


Mine too!

Sent from my LG G6 using Tapatalk

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 12:49 pm 
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I don't agree with this sort of absolutism. Pink Floyd is still Pink Floyd without Syd Barrett and Roger Waters. AC/DC is still AC/DC without Bon Scott. Queen are still Queen without Freddie. And that's as it should be.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:31 pm 
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Voronwë the Faithful wrote:
Quote:
V, I had tickets to the Wall concert too; and I didn't put it on my google calendar and booked my Paris campus visit at the same time.


I'm pretty sure in 1980, there was no such thing as a google calendar. ;)


Or that I had access to it as a TWO year old!

You meant the ORIGINAL Wall Concert. Shit. :bow:

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:16 pm 
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Alatar wrote:
I don't agree with this sort of absolutism. Pink Floyd is still Pink Floyd without Syd Barrett and Roger Waters. AC/DC is still AC/DC without Bon Scott. Queen are still Queen without Freddie. And that's as it should be.
I mean, I honestly think that's up to the individual. If to me "Queen" means Freddy Mercury, I'm not wrong, even if to you it doesn't. The question of what defines a band is a personal one I think. And certainly to many people, perhaps most, changing your lead singer means you have lost a defining part of your band.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:31 pm 
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That's fine, but state it as a personal opinion, not an absolute fact.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:46 pm 
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Even the other members of Queen acknowledge that they are not Queen without Freddie, they are "Queen and Adam Lambert." The Doors knew they could never be the The Doors without Jim Morrison.

Of course I am expressing my opinion, and I completely respect that your opinion is at least as equally valid as mine, Al, but to me it feels like an absolute fact Pink Floyd without Roger Waters was missing something integral to what made Pink Floyd Pink Floyd, just as The Doors without Jim Morrison would have been missing something integral to what made The Doors The Doors, and Queen without Freddie isn't Queen. I experience that as an absolute fact, not just my opinion. But as I said earlier, of course your mileage may vary.

Inanna, yes, the original Wall concerts that Pink Floyd did. I did get to see a Roger Waters Wall concert, in 2010, which was fantastic. But it still wasn't Pink Floyd. ;)

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:54 pm 
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Well Pink Floyd is the artist on the album. Not sure what I would call them if not that. Division Bell isn't by any other group, so... I am curious to know where you feel Pink Floyd ended, then, and what they are now if not that.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:15 pm 
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Queen play with Adam Lambert but they are still Queen. Brian and Roger may be the last remaining band members of Queen. But they are Queen. Is it the same Queen? No. But it’s Queen.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:55 pm 
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Alatar wrote:
Queen play with Adam Lambert but they are still Queen. Brian and Roger may be the last remaining band members of Queen. But they are Queen. Is it the same Queen? No. But it’s Queen.


Alatar wrote:
That's fine, but state it as a personal opinion, not an absolute fact.


:P

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 8:41 pm 
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That's not my statement, its the band's statement.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 8:54 pm 
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I honestly find it, I don't know, tacky or disrespectful or something, for a band to keep using the same name once you've lost the singer on all your most famous songs. It feels cheap or dishonest or something. I dunno, but I don't like it.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:07 pm 
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yovargas wrote:
I honestly find it, I don't know, tacky or disrespectful or something, for a band to keep using the same name once you've lost the singer on all your most famous songs. It feels cheap or dishonest or something. I dunno, but I don't like it.


Why the singer? Why is that the definition of a group? Why if the singer is gone do the remaining band members - the majority - lose the (even perceived) right to be that group?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:10 am 
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This is exactly the argument Brian May and Roger Taylor had. I recall the interview quite clearly. They basically said "We're professional musicians, this is our life's work. Are we supposed to just walk away from it?". John Deacon chose to retire after recording "No One But You", but left the Queen name and rights to all his music to the remaining band members. This was a hugely collaborative band, where each of the four members wrote number one hits. If we were talking about Simply Red, or even Dire Straits, I would agree because those bands were essentially session musicians for Mick Hucknall and Mark Knopfler respectively*. They weren't really "bands" per se.

Paul McCartney also referred to this for getting grief about playing "Yesterday" after the Beatles split up.

* Apart from the early Dire Straits albums, but even then it was all Knopfler.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:34 am 
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elengil wrote:
yovargas wrote:
I honestly find it, I don't know, tacky or disrespectful or something, for a band to keep using the same name once you've lost the singer on all your most famous songs. It feels cheap or dishonest or something. I dunno, but I don't like it.


Why the singer? Why is that the definition of a group? Why if the singer is gone do the remaining band members - the majority - lose the (even perceived) right to be that group?

Because, like it or not, the singer is the voice and face of almost all bands. And also, it is much easier to find someone who can convincingly play guitar like Brian May than someone who can sing like Freddy Mercury. Singers, especially rock singers, are far more unique and distinct than instruments. I bet there are thousands and thousands of talented musicians who could perfectly play the instrumental portions of any Queen or Pynk Floyd song but almost no one can sing like their singers did.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:00 am 
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I disagree with that. I don’t think there are any guitarist that can play like Brian May, and I know that there are none that can play like David Gilmour. Still, it is true that the lead singer is usually the face of a group, and often the main creative force. Al is correct that Queen was a hugely collaborative group, but Freddie was always the main attractive. That’s why they don’t tour now as just “Queen” they have to tour as “Queen and Adam Lambert”. Whereas a group like Van Halen was able to move on from one lead singer to another without missing a beat, and Fleetwood Mac can fire Lindsey Buckingham but still tour successfully as Fleetwood Mac.

elengil wrote:
Well Pink Floyd is the artist on the album. Not sure what I would call them if not that. Division Bell isn't by any other group, so... I am curious to know where you feel Pink Floyd ended, then, and what they are now if not that.


I answered this earlier, but my post somehow never appeared :x Honestly, I would probably say that The Wall was the last real Pink Floyd album. The Final Cut, the last album with Roger Waters, was really a Waters solo album with contributions by David Gilmour and Nick Mason. Richard Wright was essentially fired from the group by Waters and did not participate in that album at all. Even with Gilmour and Mason continued on with the Pink Floyd name after that, Wright was never allowed to be a full member of the group and was essentially treated as a studio musician, up to his death in 2008. And while Gilmour and Mason did release an album as Pink Floyd in 2014, using recording done with Wright for the Division Bell sessions, it is unlikely that they will be making any new music as Pink Floyd, though there are always rumblings of a possible new reunion. Still, I don’t think there is much of an argument that Pink Floyd exists as an ongoing entity at this point, though both Waters and Gilmour continue to make amazing music.

Here’s a question that I would put out to Al and others: what would you think if either Robert Plant or Jimmie Page tried to record or tour as Led Zeppelin without the other one. For me neither would be appropriate; both are essential to making the group “Led Zeppelin”. Whereas John Paul Jones and even John Bonham, as great as they were, are not.

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