Escaping the Echo Chamber

[Voronwë the Faithful]

No. No, I didn't.

I'm really surprised I have to explain this, but its a sort of reverse "reductio ad absurdum" by showing that in small things, as in large, the same basic principles apply. If you accept one thing it leads to another. But hey, whip out your strawman to have a go Frelga, it seems you only reply to me nowadays to vaguely or directly accuse me of being a terrible human being. Not really sure why, but if you're going to continue, please take it to Nan Elmoth and stop hounding me every time I engage in a discussion.

I am really amazed that you don't understand how hurtful that statement was.

I'm out.

[Alatar]

I'm not ignoring the lyrics of the song. I'm just understanding them correctly and in context.


You've never heard the Pogues "Fairytale of New York"?

Its probably my favourite Christmas Song!(*)

Link, should you be interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9jbdgZidu8

(*) It's a Christmas song in the same way the Die Hard is a Christmas movie...

[yovargas]

I'm not ignoring the lyrics of the song. I'm just understanding them correctly and in context.

But at no point here have you discussed, or even really mentioned, the lyrics of the song. I would like to see you address and defend the actual lyrics, since that is what people have a problem with.

[Alatar]

All of them?

I really can't stay, I've got to go away
This evening has been So very nice
My mother will start to worry My father will be pacing the floor
So really I'd better scurry But maybe just a half a drink more

So this is the first verse. She saying she should leave because her parents would worry, but then says she'll stay for another drink. Because she wants to stay.

The neighbors might think Say what's in this drink?
I wish I knew how To break this spell
I ought to say, no, no, no sir
At least I'm gonna say that I tried
I really can't stay
But baby, it's cold outside

Again she starts with worrying about the neighbors. Agrees that "Whats in this drink" sounds wrong nowadays, but as pointed out in several articles that's a misunderstanding of a common 40's joke.
She says she "ought" to go, not that she wants to. "I'm gonna say that I tried", to protect her reputation. Then finally she says "I really can't stay, but baby its cold outside", again reinforcing that she very much wants to.

I simply must go The answer is no
Your welcome has been So nice and warm
My sister will be suspicious My brother will be there at the door
My maiden aunts mind is vicious
But maybe just a cigarette more

Same thing again. She says she "must" go, not that she wants to. Again talks about her sister, her brother and her aunt. And once again makes an excuse to stay longer

I've gotta get home Say lend me a coat
You've really been grand But don't you see?
There's bound to be talk tomorrow
At least there will be plenty implied
I really can't stay
Baby, it's cold
Baby, it's cold outside

And again "I've got to", not I want to. She compliments him on how grand he's been, but repeats her worry about what people will say, but by now appears to have made the decision to stay because she accepts that there will be talk about them. And again finishes with "I really CAN'T stay, but baby it's cold, baby its cold outside" Also, note that she sings this in harmony with the guy. Because they ARE in harmony.

Do you not find it surprising that at no stage in the entire song does she say she "wants" to go home?

[Alatar]

I am really amazed that you don't understand how hurtful that statement was.

I'm out.

My apologies if you found that hurtful. No offence was intended.

[yovargas]

Uh, Al, it's not the woman's behavior that people find problematic. It's the man's.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I am really amazed that you don't understand how hurtful that statement was.

I'm out.

My apologies if you found that hurtful. No offence was intended.

I know that. At another time it might be worth discussing why someone like me (or Frelga) would find such a comparison not only inappropriate but extremely upsetting, but that is obviously ancillary to this discussion.

[Primula Baggins]

It would be worth thinking about that, Alatar.

[Alatar]

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/pri ... 43722.html

[yovargas]

Ha. I find that one pretty funny because feminists have been pointing out how generally messed up that movie is for ages.

[Maria]

I had to go watch a youtube of "It's cold out there" just so I could see faces....
And I have to say that Ricardo Montalban is just too darn cute for me to find his importunings offensive.

The woman singing the "wolf" role in the second half of the video goes a bit too far, in my opinion.

[elengil]

I did find it interesting how very differently that the two 'versions' (man/woman vs woman/man) are portrayed and how we perceive them.

For the 'wolf' role, while they did not act their respective scenes exactly the same, still, the man is portrayed/perceived suave and persuasive, the woman is portrayed/perceived as pushy and desperate. The woman saying 'no' is portrayed as wanting to give in and almost exhausted by the resistance she is putting up, the man saying 'no' is portrayed as increasingly irate over the 'fight'. And this is a contemporary portrayal.

Men expect their 'no' to be respected, but not a woman's 'no'. Like when men write an entire manifesto about how unfair that is and how badly they've been treated if they get turned down, but never seem to have any problems turning down women they aren't interested in.

And here is once again the reason why people are having problems with this song. It may have been progressive at the time, but so was "separate but equal" at one time. What was progressive becomes mainstream, becomes regressive and old fashioned. It's the way of societies. You can understand that it was progressive for the day without needing to continue to dredge it up every year after it's long outlasted that social view.

We can appreciate it as progressive for it's day while still appreciating it is not appropriate for our day.

[Frelga]

What elengil said.

I think we underestimate the 1940s. I got addicted to the TMC, and the movies from 1930s and 40s are doing a better job of portraying women as having personality and agency than the 80s, in many cases. I think the song was creepy in the 40s, too.

[Maria]

The woman in the second one went too far in actually throwing the man on the couch. If the roles had been reversed, that would have been completely inappropriate.

The first one reminded me of watching a mating dance between two birds.

[Alatar]

I agree Maria.

[Lalaith]

This will not be a very insightful post, more of just my two cents.

We can appreciate it as progressive for it's day while still appreciating it is not appropriate for our day.

I agree with this in principle and think it's a very good point. However, I do want to say that I think Al's take on it is an interesting one (that the woman is constrained by cultural norms but actually does want to stay). It is difficult to apply modern standards and worldviews to the past. Personally, I don't think I knew the song before Elf came out, and it probably wouldn't still be getting airtime if it weren't for that. (?? Maybe? Maybe that's just my perception. I'm not big into Christmas songs.)

Overall, this whole thing strikes me as a bit of a tempest in a teapot. I can see both sides, and I'm not a fan of the song anyway. <shrug> If a radio station doesn't want to play it, that's their choice, honestly. Do we need to make a big to-do about it? Sigh. I have bigger things to worry about, honestly. I do wish everyone wouldn't get so easily offended, though. It's exhausting.

(Just being honest. I know it's not a popular opinion.)

[yovargas]

However, I do want to say that I think Al's take on it is an interesting one (that the woman is constrained by cultural norms but actually does want to stay).

But does that make the man's actions okay?
(You can probably guess my answer.)

[Lalaith]

Okay, so reading the lyrics closely instead of relying on my memory, here is my impression:

Meh.

I think we are applying our standards to this song, written in the 40s or whatever. It reminds me of the time I came across the entry in my grandma's diary from the 30s that said "he made love to me" and I freaked out. However, "making love" meant passionate kissing back then. (Just pay attention to what Mary tells her mother in It's a Wonderful Life.) I suspect that we are assuming he's pressuring her to stay so that they can have sex. I wonder if it's a little more innocent than that. Is he pressuring her? I suppose. Is that right? No, and not back then either, but it might have been less nefarious than what our minds jump to nowadays.

IOW, this type of interaction isn't acceptable anymore, and it doesn't hurt to have these discussions. I think they're good, actually, and I love that people are becoming more aware of sexual harassment and assault. But getting upset enough to ban this song seems like an overreaction to me. Maybe I'm just feeling cranky and contrary tonight, but I can't seem to muster up any righteous indignation over a lame Christmas song. (Sorry, but it is lame. IMO.)

See? I'm cranky.


ETA: My cranky self should add the following disclaimers:

I'm not saying anyone here is overreacting.
I'm not saying we shouldn't be having this discussion or that it's not informative.

[elengil]

... they came for the Christmas songs...

How is "Baby, It's Cold Outside" a Christmas song? In any way??

[Alatar]

... they came for the Christmas songs...

How is "Baby, It's Cold Outside" a Christmas song? In any way??

Lol. Fair point! I have no idea why, but it’s considered to be one.