The Silmarillion Discussion at The Hall of Fire

[truehobbit]

Imp, thanks for further explaining - on both points!

I think I understand better now - I thought you were drawing a parallel between the two concepts as a whole, rather than more specifically between Melkor and Kali!

[IdylleSeethes]

I have a mechanistic view of predetermination and free will that is alluded to in Hobby's chess example.

There are rules that govern what can happen in the universe. We don't know all of them and we don't understand some of which we are aware. My assumption is that the creator knows and understands them all, so that from his/her view all possible outcomes are known at creation. Someone (V?) earlier said that the creator's view is from outside of space and time, which is an opinion I share, so from his/her view, everything is immediately resolved.

Where does that leave us? We are free to choose any of the possible paths, but are never presented the non-existent paths. I can choose to be a father, but I cannot choose to be my father, for example. We only have a view of the world created from the set of choices that exist on the path we have taken.

This leaves an infinite number of paths not taken. Do the worlds, through which these other paths run, exist, or is my path the only path that is real? There was much speculation on these, starting in the mid 20th century, which coincided with our growing understanding of quantum physics. At the moment, this seems to culminate in string theory, which presents us with in intriguing hint at where these other paths are hidden.

Object theory in computer science seems to be heading in a similar direction. I only mention it to show that there is a separate, but possibly congruent model. I'll spare you the details, although a discussion of identity may be useful, but probably should be done elsewhere.

Prior to the 20th century, our view was that there was only a single path through a single reality. In some religions/philosophies there was the notion of other opportunities (reincarnation), but these were thought of as serial experiences. It is time to speculate that from the viewpoint of the creator, all paths exist and all are taken.

Tolkien's life and thoughts are within the period of the discovery of quantum physics and the early days of string theory. His ideas about predestination and free will are probably largely inherited from his Catholic background. The Church developed its explanation of the relationship between predetermination and free will during the Reformation. However, in the academic environment of Oxford, I would think that there were some hints that after 500 years of stale thought, we were on the brink of a new understanding. I think existentialism itself may have been an unconscious consequence of a new physical model of the universe.

I hope this hasn't been a distraction. At least a part of it directly relates to the current discussion.

[truehobbit]

This leaves an infinite number of paths not taken. Do the worlds, through which these other paths run, exist, or is my path the only path that is real?

From the point of view of Tolkien's creation myth, I think the paths that were not taken in the thoughts of the Ainur were not created, therefore it could be argued that any path not chosen does not come into existence.
In the real world I think the same.

I'd like to raise a completely new question or two, more directly connected to the subject of this chapter (this does not mean you shouldn't go on discussing all the other aspects, which are all very interesting!). (There were quite a few questions, but I've forgotten most of them or they are connected to Fëanor's character, which I think deserves a detailed study somewhere.)

So, here's one detail that bugged me:
On hearing of his father's murder, Fëanor leaves the Ring of Doom

for his father was dearer to him than the Light of Valinor or the peerless works of his hands; and who among sons, of Elves or of Men, have held their fathers of greater worth?

Um, no, I don't think he held his father dearer than anything. If he did, he wouldn't have given him such trouble over re-marrying, IMO.
He had the typical jealousy reaction, so that shows that he was ambitious for his father's love, but he apparently didn't love him very selflessly, and therefore, IMO, can't be said to have held him dearer than anything else.

But this is an auctorial (or rather narratorial?) comment - it's not Fëanor praising himself for his love for his father, it seems to be the author's view.

So, what do you guys make of this?


Another thing I find interesting is Ungoliant being so insatiable that she devoured herself in the end - it's quite a fascinating idea, I think, and I'd love to hear people's take on this!

[Sassafras]

Another thing I find interesting is Ungoliant being so insatiable that she devoured herself in the end - it's quite a fascinating idea, I think, and I'd love to hear people's take on this!

Ah. Well, Tolkien painted evil in fairly absolute, one dimensional terms, I think. ... there are no shades of gray in Melkor, Sauron, the Orcs, Shelob or Ungoliant .... even so, her ultimate demise seems a bit obscure.

some have said that she ended long ago, when in her uttermost famine she devoured herself at last'.

She couldn't find any other source of light?

Still, Tolkien appears to gave conceived of her as lust (for light) personified and so it seems singularly fitting that she would eventually devour herself ... a sort of poetic justice.

<copy of part of a post I wrote on b77>

What I find fascinating is the nature of Ungoliant. Is it meaningful that she is a she and not an it or a he?) I don't think of her darkness as the opposite of light. It is denser than that ... more like a black hole which crushes and annihilates light transforming it into molecular darkness.

... and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service. But she had disowned her Master, desiring to be Mistress of her own lust ...

Is she a spawn of Melkor's evil? Or perhaps, as I think possible, an evil that was born (of Ilúvatar's thought) concurrent with Melkor's fall from grace. That is, the fall made other dark manifestations possible. It is telling that she begins as being *corrupted* which indicates that she was an independant spirit (independant from Melkor) and that her nature was not altogether evil in the beginning .... that which is wholly evil does not need to be corrupted. Unless ... (thinking out loud here) Tolkien intends corrupted to be taken as seduced as in Melkor seduced Ungoliant into his service.

The relationship between these two seems more like synergy rather than master/servant. He desires to destroy and dominate the creations of the Valar and she desires survival and the temporary satiation of the light. As equals, they each need the other to acheive this. I find it interesting that, in the end

... and going to the Wells of Varda she drank them dry; but Ungoliant
belched forth black vapours as she drank, and swelled to a shape so vast and hideous that Melkor was afraid.

If she wasn't of maiar then she must have been of at least equal power; the webs she wove confused and confounded the Valar and Tulkas <snip> stood powerless and beat the air in vain.

.
.
Hobby, why don't you start a Fëanor thread?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

This leaves an infinite number of paths not taken. Do the worlds, through which these other paths run, exist, or is my path the only path that is real?

From the point of view of Tolkien's creation myth, I think the paths that were not taken in the thoughts of the Ainur were not created, therefore it could be argued that any path not chosen does not come into existence.
In the real world I think the same.

Hobby, this hearkens back to the long post I made at the beginning of this thread (which no one, not even Ath or Sass, commented on) with quotes from Tolkien's letters about how he saw the Valar's role as sub-creators. Using Rowan's neat trick (which I did not know about before, thanks Rowan ), here is that post. The key point that I want to reference is this:

The Ainur took part in the making of the world as ‘sub-creators’: in various degrees, after this fashion. They interpreted according to their powers, and completed in detail, the Design propounded to them by the One. This was propounded first in musical or abstract form, and then in an ‘historical vision’. In the first interpretation, the vast Music of the Ainur, Melkor introduced alterations, not interpretations of the mind of the One, and great discord arose. The One then presented this ‘Music’, including the apparent discords, as a visible ‘history.’

At this stage it had still only a validity, to which the validity of a ‘story’ among ourselves may be compared: it ‘exists’ in the mind of the teller, and derivatively in the minds of hearers, but not on the same plane as teller or hearers. When the One (the Teller) said Let it Be* (* Hence the Elves called the World, the Universe, Eä), then the Tale became History, on the same plane as the hearers; and these could, if they desired, enter into it. Many of the Ainur did enter into it, and must bide in it till the End, being involved in Time, the series of events that complete it. These were the Valar, and their lesser attendants. They were those who had ‘fallen in love’ with the vision, and no doubt, were those who had played the most ‘sub-creative’ (or as we might say ‘artistic’) part in the Music. (Letter 212, p. 284.)

The way I look at it, the Valar are like actors in a play. They have seen the script, but they are still free to improvise. However, if they stray too far from the Director's vision, He is not above stepping into the action to steer it back on course.

Following that analogy to its natural conclusion, we are like actors in a play that have NOT seen the script.

So, here's one detail that bugged me:
On hearing of his father's murder, Fëanor leaves the Ring of Doom

for his father was dearer to him than the Light of Valinor or the peerless works of his hands; and who among sons, of Elves or of Men, have held their fathers of greater worth?

Um, no, I don't think he held his father dearer than anything. If he did, he wouldn't have given him such trouble over re-marrying, IMO.
He had the typical jealousy reaction, so that shows that he was ambitious for his father's love, but he apparently didn't love him very selflessly, and therefore, IMO, can't be said to have held him dearer than anything else.

But this is an auctorial (or rather narratorial?) comment - it's not Fëanor praising himself for his love for his father, it seems to be the author's view.

So, what do you guys make of this?

Hobby, this is something that I alluded to previously (back at b77). Clearly Tolkien is stating as a fact that Fëanor did truly love his father dearly, despite his selfish pridefulness. As I wrote before:

But Fëanor, for all his fearful pride, is yet an object of sympathy, running from the Ring of Doom and fleeing into the night for his grief at the killing of his father, who "was dearer to him than the Light of Valinor or the peerless works of his hands; and who among sons, Elves or of Men, have held their fathers of greater worth?" Would the bitterness in his heart at the slaying of his father as well as the rape of his precious Silmarils not still led him to the same path even if he had freely agreed to give up the Silmarils when asked, or would his grief have been free of the madness that drove the Noldor to exile and misery? We can only speculate, but I suspect that Tolkien is suggesting that it would have.

This is the type of emotional manipulation that Tolkien does so well. I really should NOT feel sympathy for Fëanor here. Tolkien's typically hyperbolic statements really should not have any effect at all. But the language is so high and florid that I can't help but be moved by these sentiments, unsupported by facts though they might be.

Another thing I find interesting is Ungoliant being so insatiable that she devoured herself in the end - it's quite a fascinating idea, I think, and I'd love to hear people's take on this!

I'll just quote Athrabeth here, from this great post at b77 (boy do I love that feature!!!!), responding to something that Sassy said:

I've been thinking about Ungoliant for days ... thinking about her greed and her ability to devour light. Her need which, if I may say so, goes far beyond any analogy of a junkie's craving. It is a necessity. She cannot exist without consuming light and in fact, eventually, deprived of light she does starve.

I’m not so sure that Ungoliant can’t exist without consuming light. Tolkien tells us that she takes “all things to herself to feed her emptiness”. All things. She devours the jewels that Melkor stole from Formenos, she devours her foul mates in Ered Gorgoroth, she even devours herself in the end. But light is her greatest desire, the “food” (“fix”?) she craves more than any other. I find the line “she hungered for light and hated it” very powerful. It reminds me very much of what Gandalf said of Gollum and the Ring: “He hated it and loved it, as he hated and loved himself”. I’ve always found that thought incredibly sad. Poor, wicked, tormented Sméagol, caught in this inescapable and destructive web of lust and loathing. I suppose I’m feeling more inclined to think of Ungoliant in a similar way now that we have been discussing the symbolism of light in Tolkien’s mythos. Does she hunger for light because she is drawn to all it represents: love, hope, mercy, blessedness? Does she hate it because her emptiness is all the more unbearable next to the fullness of its glory? Is Ungoliant, deep down, unknowingly, seeking some kind of redemption – to somehow touch the infinite presence of Ilúvatar so that her great emptiness can finally be filled, her anguish ended, her hunger abated. Poor, wicked, tormented Ungoliant, seeking to fill the nothingness within her with the purity and beauty of light, only to turn it into a greater nothingness, an “Unlight” that is as void as the Darkness from which she came, as empty as her very being.

[Sassafras]

I want to touch very briefly on two things in your post, V.

this ...

The way I look at it, the Valar are like actors in a play. They have seen the script, but they are still free to improvise. However, if they stray too far from the Director's vision, He is not above stepping into the action to steer it back on course.

Following that analogy to its natural conclusion, we are like actors in a play that have NOT seen the script. Help

And yet it is scripted.

<I'll come back and expound a bit when I have more time>

and this ... from Ath's post (dunno how I missed these lines before)

Is Ungoliant, deep down, unknowingly, seeking some kind of redemption – to somehow touch the infinite presence of Ilúvatar so that her great emptiness can finally be filled, her anguish ended...

I would really like to get into a discussion of a question I asked in the Istari thread on the dimensionality of evil and whether or not there is some possibility of a deeply buried flicker of remorse ... perhaps not even recognized, that still remains inside the souls, the essence, of Tolkien's dark characters.

I think IIRC the actual question I asked concerned Saruman, but it applies to Sauron and especially to Morgoth ... (My conclusion was, btw, that Saruman used Grima as executioner in a forlorn attempt at justice)

Can a soul of a great power, Maia/Ainur be incontrovertibly perverted beyond redemption? Can the corruption be absolute?

[IdylleSeethes]

With the exception of some science fiction specifically exploiting the idea of parallel universes, stories are about converging paths, excluding the non-covergent. The same is true of our lives as we know them. I don't think that was the issue being discussed.

The Sil contains pointers to an amazing array of ethical/moral issues, the consequences of a creator's omniscience being one of them. Tolkien presents us with a set of problems that some of the best minds in Christianity have struggled with unsuccessfully. I don't think this was accidental. I also don't consider it just a coincidence that the appearance of the Sil and the seeds of the first scientific explanation appeared within a few decades of each other. New discoveries generally don't just fall from the sky. There is a known, demonstrable phenomenon associated with awareness that indicates that we cannot see something passing before us unless we are predisposed to recognize it. It is as if it isn't there. The acquisition of knowledge and understanding is a social activity and does not happen in isolation. So, I think both the raising of the issues in the Sil and quantum physics are aspects of advances of our understanding for which we were then prepared for as a society. The last serious struggle with a supreme being's omniscience and the perceived logical consequence of pre-destination was in the 16th century.

To be at the threshhold of resolving an ethical/moral issue is rare. I'm glad the conflict between predetermination and free will got at least a little discussion here.

[Alatar]

At the risk of annoying everyone...

It seems there is a lot of discussion here of themes of good and evil, predestination and overarching metaphysical discussions. While these are all valid discussions in relation to the Silmarillion it seems to me that many of them deserve their own threads where they could be explored fully. According to the topic title we should be discussing "Of the Flight of the Noldor". While some of these issues do affect that chapter, I wonder are we so bogged down in the thematic issues that we have lost track of the story?

We seem to have been discussing these same issues for months now, here, on B77 and on TORC and a year later we're still on Chapter 9. I think the reason we're making so little headway is because we're spending so much time on the thematic material.

No offense is intended by this post, and I hope none is taken. I think these discussions are very interesting, but I'd like to be able to move on with the narrative and to discuss characters and plots as that's my own personal interest.

All IMHO of course

Alatar

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Al, no offense is taken at all. In fact, to a certain extent I feel the same way, though I do love the underlying thematic discussion. I think that part of it is the result of the move (again) and reconsolidation of the discussion with knew participants (yeah!) coming on board.

I've asked Ath if she is still interested in co-hosting this thread with me as she was doing at b77 and she has agreed, and is planning to write the summary for the next chapter. However, she is in the middle of her busiest time of the year (with report cards and such) so it is going to be a few days or a week or so, so I beg your patience. I think that things will move along more swiftly once we are firmly entrenched here and the story is firmly entrenched in Beleriand.

I would also love to see separate threads started to discuss some of these overarching themes.

P.S. And thank you for saying something. I would much rather get that kind of feedback then to not get it.

[Athrabeth]

I live to serve!

Of The Sindar

In this chapter, Tolkien sets the stage for the great performance that will play out upon the lands of Middle-earth. We have long been watching events unfold in Aman, and as the Noldor make their way back to the shores they left thousands of years before, our view also shifts as we look upon the mountains and forests and rivers that we last saw before the Eldar embarked on their great journey into the West. At the center of that view are Thingol and Melian, those two enchanted lovers whose meeting caused Time itself to stand still for them, and whose power brings “life and joy” to Beleriand even though the lands around them still lie in the Sleep of Yavanna. I love this thought of stars shining as “silver fires” over their domain – starlight so bright that it can actually sustain the living things that grow under its gentle glory. And in the midst of this earthly paradise, Lúthien is born ”and the white flowers of niphredil came forth to greet her as stars from the earth.”. To me, this image harkens back to Varda’s kindling of the stars to greet the awakening Elves. Is Lúthien’s birth another kind of awakening for the Eldar?

The Dwarves also walk onto the vast stage of Middle-earth after their own long and mysterious sleep under stone. Reading through the first few passages of their reintroduction, I distinctly remember having to constantly refer to the map at the back of the Sil (which still comes in mighty handy at times) in order to get my bearings straight on that dizzying assortment of places and names. And what names! From the very beginning, we “hear” the rich, earthly language of the Dwarves. The on-going “Shibboleth” discussion seems particularly pertinent to this section of the chapter, and as I read through it this time, I saw more clearly how the “separateness” of Elves and Dwarves is maintained through an unbridged chasm of language. Both kindreds contribute to this separateness, with the Elves unwilling to learn the language of the Dwarves and the Dwarves unwilling to share its “secrets”. Galadriel’s words to Gimli become all the more meaningful to me when viewed in relation to this fundamental gulf between the two races.

Another point about the Dwarves that I had never really considered before is how ”they hated the sound of the sea and feared to look upon it”. The Children of Ilúvatar love the sea and hearken to its echoes of the First Music ; they are drawn to its shores in their yearnings for the West, but not so the Dwarves. It is a reminder, I think, that they are wholly separate things from the sole creations of Eru, and that their ultimate fate does not lie with that of either Elves or Men. Once again, I think about Gimli and his final voyage to the Blessed Realm – what a poignant reflection of his bond of friendship with Legolas and his deep and abiding love for Galadriel; how profoundly changed he became by the Quest!


With an alliance established of convenience and mutual gain, if not of trust and friendship, both the Dwarves and the Elves flourish, as do their skills in craft and art. I suppose I have always found it rather difficult to envision the great halls of Menegroth as “Elvish” for the mere fact that they are delved under the earth, so this time I really concentrated on Tolkien’s description of them in an attempt to form more concrete images in my mind.

Oh my!

It is so unlike anything in the “real world”, it almost defies my abilities to picture it, but this time, I “saw” more clearly the great lanterns of gold casting their light over forests of stone and fountains of silver and gardens where nightingales sing. I also find it interesting that the weavings of Melian of the “many things that had befallen in Arda since its beginning, and shadows of things that were yet to be”, seem to parallel the tapestries of Míriel in the halls of Vairë that record the deeds of the Noldor within Arda. Menegroth, to me, is clearly an echo in Middle-earth of the splendour of Valinor; the crowning glory of a “blessed realm” in its own right, of beauty and wisdom and peace.

It is interesting that the Elves do not find much use for the Runes of Daeron, and that it is the Dwarves that revere and utilize his great work. Ominously, not until “the days of the War” will the Sindar begin in earnest to record their deeds, and so the works of Melian and the artisans of Menegroth will be destroyed and their glad memories lost forever. Tolkien’s words almost sound like a gentle lament for the short-sightedness of those blessed with peace and plenty:

But of bliss and glad life there is little to be said, before it ends; as works fair and wonderful, while still they endure for eyes to see, are their own record, and only when they are in peril or broken for ever do they pass into song.

Again, Tolkien seems to be drawing our attention to the similarities between Beleriand and Aman in the following passage:

In Beleriand in those days the Elves walked, and the rivers flowed, and the stars shone, and the night-flowers gave for the their scents; and the beauty of Melian was as the noon, and the beauty of Lúthien was the dawn in spring. In Beleriand King Thingol upon his throne was as the lords of the Maiar, whose power is at rest, whose joy is as untroubled from the heights to the deeps.

And like Aman, a shadow now grows in potency and malice to threaten the very fabric of its existence. One can feel that terrible power in Morgoth’s cry during his battle with Ungoliant, and how it marks the end of the days of bliss: “…but the great cry of Morgoth echoed through Beleriand, and all its people shrank for fear; for though they knew not what it foreboded, they heard then the herald of death.”

The servants of Morgoth and the webs of Ungoliant now darken the borders of Thingol’s realm, and so a great new work is undertaken by the Sindar with help from the Dwarves – the forging of weapons and the shaping of helms and coats of mail, which once again parallels the events in Aman where the lies of Melkor served to fan the flames of the Noldor’s unrest and to inspire the sons of Finwë to fashion their own armouries.

The first battle in the Wars of Beleriand does not end in a clear victory for the Elves. Many of the people of Lenwë retreat to a wary and secretive existence in the land of Ossiriand, while many others seek refuge in the guarded realm of Thingol, becoming merged with the Sindar. Círdan is driven “to the rim of the sea”, presumably back behind the “walled havens of Falas” that remain unassailable by the forces of Morgoth. And Thingol calls upon all his people to withdraw into the region that will become known as Doriath, the guarded kingdom, for Melian “put forth her power and fenced all that dominion round about with an unseen wall of shadow and bewilderment…that none thereafter could pass against her will or the will of King Thingol, unless one should come with a power greater than that of Melian the Maia.” (which certainly says something about Beren !). It should be noted that in the next chapter, the Valar will hide and protect Valinor in much the same way, creating the Enchanted Isles where all the seas are ”filled with shadows and bewilderment”. In many ways, “the Girdle of Melian” also reminds me of the power of Galadriel’s will (with help from Nenya) which serves to create an impenetrable wall that shields Lothlórien against the mind and will of Sauron.

The last passage, brief, but chilling, serves to bring the reader back full circle to the events at the end of the previous chapter: the journey of Fëanor across the Sea in the stolen ships of the Teleri, and his treachery against the host of Fingolfin. But it is this sentence that I find the most telling:

But new tidings were at hand, which none in Middle-earth had foreseen, neither Morgoth in his pits nor Melian in Menegroth; for no news came out of Aman, whether by messenger, or by spirit, or by vision in dream, after the death of the Trees.

Middle-earth is now sundered from Aman by more than just the great Sea, and without the familiar presence of the Valar, the great events of the First Age, both glorious and tragic, are set to begin.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Wow!

So much think about, so many angles that I have never considered before. I'll be back with some of my own thoughts about this chapter, and what Ath has said about it, once I have a chance to sit down and think about and digest what I've just read.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I live to serve!

Thank you.

What a great post, Ath. You said just about everything I would have like to say about this chapter, and quite a few things that I never would have thought of.

Of The Sindar

The Sindar do get a raw deal, don’t they, their quiet flames obscured by the bright fires of the Noldor. And yet it was the Sindar, not the Noldor, that produced the “greatest of all the Eldar.”

And in the midst of this earthly paradise, Lúthien is born ”and the white flowers of niphredil came forth to greet her as stars from the earth.”. To me, this image harkens back to Varda’s kindling of the stars to greet the awakening Elves. Is Lúthien’s birth another kind of awakening for the Eldar?

Tolkien stated (as I have now quoted twice already in the short history of this board), that Lúthien was “the chief matter of the legends and histories of the Elves, along with the greatest of the Noldor, Fëanor and Galadriel. But those two, Fëanor and Galadriel, were really very much alike, which perhaps helps explain their enmity (and Galadriel was of course the more wise and enduring of the two). I see Lúthien as the opposite pole to Fëanor. She is very much a paragon of goodness. I have much to say about Lúthien, but I will exercise a rare bit of patience (for me) and wait until it is the correct time.

The on-going “Shibboleth” discussion seems particularly pertinent to this section of the chapter, and as I read through it this time, I saw more clearly how the “separateness” of Elves and Dwarves is maintained through an unbridged chasm of language. Both kindreds contribute to this separateness, with the Elves unwilling to learn the language of the Dwarves and the Dwarves unwilling to share its “secrets”. Galadriel’s words to Gimli become all the more meaningful to me when viewed in relation to this fundamental gulf between the two races.

How nice to see that you have been following that discussion. What an excellent observation this is. This is one of those dynamics that has always resonated with me in an unconscious way, casually noting the role of language in promoting (or at least perpetuating) divisiveness between different peoples, without really thinking through the significance. I particularly like the correlation that you point to between this passage and the passage in LOTR between Galadriel and Gimli. These are the kinds of things that I think that Tolkien was referring to when he expressed the desire to have the two works published in conjunction. They really are part of the same story. This observation really shows how Galadriel grew in wisdom over the ages; I doubt that in the First Age she would have had the same kind of interaction with a dwarf. Over the years, she became less like Fëanor, and more like Lúthien.

I also find it interesting that the weavings of Melian of the “many things that had befallen in Arda since its beginning, and shadows of things that were yet to be”, seem to parallel the tapestries of Míriel in the halls of Vairë that record the deeds of the Noldor within Arda. Menegroth, to me, is clearly an echo in Middle-earth of the splendour of Valinor; the crowning glory of a “blessed realm” in its own right, of beauty and wisdom and peace.

We see this echoed again in Gondolin the other great hidden kingdom of the Elves that stands the longest. But again, I get ahead of the story.

Ominously, not until “the days of the War” will the Sindar begin in earnest to record their deeds, and so the works of Melian and the artisans of Menegroth will be destroyed and their glad memories lost forever. Tolkien’s words almost sound like a gentle lament for the short-sightedness of those blessed with peace and plenty:

But of bliss and glad life there is little to be said, before it ends; as works fair and wonderful, while still they endure for eyes to see, are their own record, and only when they are in peril or broken for ever do they pass into song.

But this observation is so true! It is confirmed every day, reading the newspapers or watching the news on TV.

In Beleriand in those days the Elves walked, and the rivers flowed, and the stars shone, and the night-flowers gave for the their scents; and the beauty of Melian was as the noon, and the beauty of Lúthien was the dawn in spring. In Beleriand King Thingol upon his throne was as the lords of the Maiar, whose power is at rest, whose joy is as untroubled from the heights to the deeps.

I too love this description, particularly of the beauty of Melian and Lúthien. There is yet another parallel with the Lord of the Rings, where Gimli (again!) describes Galadriel and Arwen as “Morning” and “Evening”. It is very interesting to me that Galadriel is there described in similar terms as Lúthien is described here, further corroborating the sense that Galadriel has over the ages moved toward the ideal that Lúthien represented. Whereas, Melian’s beauty being as the noon evokes the “noontide of Valinor” when bliss was at its highest peak. (And Arwen as the “Evening” of course symbolizes the fading of the Elves.)

The first battle in the Wars of Beleriand does not end in a clear victory for the Elves. Many of the people of Lenwë retreat to a wary and secretive existence in the land of Ossiriand, while many others seek refuge in the guarded realm of Thingol, becoming merged with the Sindar. Círdan is driven “to the rim of the sea”, presumably back behind the “walled havens of Falas” that remain unassailable by the forces of Morgoth.

I’ve found the story of the Nandor interesting, brief though it is told, particularly that of Denethor, son of Lenwë, who

...hearing rumour of the might of Thingol and his majesty, and of the peace of his realm, gathered such host of his scattered people as he could, and led them over the mountains into Belieriand. There they were welcomed by Thingol, as kin long lost that return, and they dwelt in Ossiriand, the Land of Seven Rivers.

But when Morgoth returned to Middle-earth and assailed Beleriand with a great army of Orcs, Thingol called upon Denethor, and he paid for his loyalty with his life, and “his people lamented him ever after and took no king again.” Somehow that has always touched me, though I could hardly say why exactly.

Melian “put forth her power and fenced all that dominion round about with an unseen wall of shadow and bewilderment…that none thereafter could pass against her will or the will of King Thingol, unless one should come with a power greater than that of Melian the Maia.” (which certainly says something about Beren !).

All the more so, since it was “by the power of Melian” that Ungoliant’s advance into the realm of Thingol was stayed.

It should be noted that in the next chapter, the Valar will hide and protect Valinor in much the same way, creating the Enchanted Isles where all the seas are ”filled with shadows and bewilderment”. In many ways, “the Girdle of Melian” also reminds me of the power of Galadriel’s will (with help from Nenya) which serves to create an impenetrable wall that shields Lothlórien against the mind and will of Sauron.

Yet another connection to the Lord of the Rings that I had never before noted.

The last passage, brief, but chilling, serves to bring the reader back full circle to the events at the end of the previous chapter: the journey of Fëanor across the Sea in the stolen ships of the Teleri, and his treachery against the host of Fingolfin. But it is this sentence that I find the most telling:

But new tidings were at hand, which none in Middle-earth had foreseen, neither Morgoth in his pits nor Melian in Menegroth; for no news came out of Aman, whether by messenger, or by spirit, or by vision in dream, after the death of the Trees.

This is Tolkien at his high-minded best. The stage for the great performance that will play out upon the lands of Middle-earth is indeed well-set.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I'm going to give this a few more days, and if no one else has anything to say I'm going to move on to the next chapter. It is a short one, but I have quite a bit to say about it.

[Sassafras]

The Moriquendi …. I love the sound and the feel of that word …

Interesting that the Sindar who became the fairest and the most wise and skillful of all the Elves in Middle-Earth who excel in all manner of the arts, yet have no facility for the language of the Dwarves, the Naugrim the stunted people (hmmm. How condescending that sounds). Interesting also that the Dwarves are such a secretive people … in that they have no desire to teach their language to the Sindar. I wonder if that is because of the manner of their birth and the long sleep beneath the mountains before they are awakened after the coming of the Elves? Being made by Aulë, and not directly from Ilúvatar's music, perhaps they will always be different from the two children ... always slightly apart and not quite a comfortable fit.

Ever cool was the friendship between the Naugrim and the Eldar, though much profit they had one of the other; but at that time those griefs which lay between them had not yet come to pass.

And yet, still, the Elves for all of their distrust, ask the dwarves the help in building Menegroth, a virtual fortress of the thousand caves. Curious that the elves are willing to live underground … I had always surmised that, above all, they prefer to live under an open sky and among green growing things. Thingol paid them in pearls but what wisdom did Melian teach them to satisfy payment?

Orcs are mentioned, among the evil creatures that came to Beleriand.
Whence they came or what they were the Elves knew not then. Thinking them perhaps to be Avari who had become evil and savage in the wild, in which they guessed all too near it is said.

Here again we have the origin of orcs as elves . I still find this immensely troubling because it cuts to the heart of the problem of whether or not orcs can be considered to contain some flicker of a soul. I would like to think they can although I know Tolkien wrote them as an extreme; mindlessly warring automatons, as cannon fodder. Nevertheless, I find it disturbing. Still, I don’t suppose this particular debate will be resolved any time soon … so, onward to the Sun and the Moon.

[Jnyusa]

<I'm going to try to join in this discussion now, though I missed the first nine chapters. Off to read the Sil ... again.>

Jn

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Yeah!

[Alatar]

I promise I'll have something to say on this chapter also. But don't feel the need to wait on me...

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Double yeah! And its going to take some time for me to gather up my thoughts on the Sun and the Moon, anyway.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

The Moriquendi …. I love the sound and the feel of that word …

Me too, Sass, though I admit to some uneasiness about the term "the dark Elves." The Moriquendi were those Elves who refused the summons of the Valar to Valinor, or fell away on the Great Journey, and never saw the light of the Two Trees. But I think its pretty well established that the summons of the Valar to Valinor was a mistake. Yet those that refused that summons are definitely second class citizens in the heirarchy of the Eldar.

Being made by Aulë, and not directly from Ilúvatar's music, perhaps they will always be different from the two children ... always slightly apart and not quite a comfortable fit.

This is an important point, I think, and I think the dwarves are deserving of more thought then I tend to give them. We know that Elves and Men were not part of the musical theme propounded by Eru to the Ainur, that their "themes were introduced into the Music by the One, when the discords of Melkor arose." But what of the dwarves? Surely they also were not part of the original musical theme propounded by Eru, and yet they too were inserted into the tale, and given wills of their own by Eru. But unlike the intrusion that resulted in the creation of Elves and Men, which was "made indeed while the ‘story’ was still only a story and not ‘realized’" the intrusion that resulted in the creation of the dwarves happened (it now seems to me) while the story was already being realized, and that the dwarves were never part of the either the Music, nor the Vision that was revealed to the Ainur by Eru as a result of the Music.

Tolkien said (as I quoted earlier in this thread, that Elves and Men were "rational creatures of free will in regard to God, of the same historical rank as the Valar, though of far smaller spiritual and intellectual power and status." How about the dwarves? were they also rational crations of free will in regard to God, of the same historical rank as the Valar, though of far smaller spiritual and intellectual power and status?

Here again we have the origin of orcs as elves . I still find this immensely troubling because it cuts to the heart of the problem of whether or not orcs can be considered to contain some flicker of a soul.

Tolkien found this immensely troubling as well. I am convinced that had he had an opportunity to truly complete the Silmarillion, the Orcs would have been explained in a very different manner.

[Sassafras]

Me too, Sass, though I admit to some uneasiness about the term "the dark Elves." The Moriquendi were those Elves who refused the summons of the Valar to Valinor, or fell away on the Great Journey, and never saw the light of the Two Trees. But I think its pretty well established that the summons of the Valar to Valinor was a mistake. Yet those that refused that summons are definitely second class citizens in the hierarchy of the Eldar.

Yes. The light of the Two Trees is somehow seen to confer legitimacy or a special dispensation and the Moriquendi who refused the summons are the recalictrant children who shall forever be denied the grace shed by the Light.
They are punished and marked forever as Dark. Very unfair and totally without merit in my opinion. I consider them prudent rather than disobedient.

the dwarves were never part of the either the Music, nor the Vision that was revealed to the Ainur by Eru as a result of the Music.

The more I think about the dwarves the more I come to the conclusion that their difficulties in communicating stems from the manner of their birth. Tolkien seems to have paid far less attention to them, mostly because, I suspect he was intent on working out the duality that Elves and Men represented to him. Elves representing the aesthetic and creative in man, and Men being of a baser nature and far more easily corruptible.
If I remember correctly, all (most?) of the Men in Tolkien's world who do aspire to, and achieve greatness carry Elven blood in their lineage.