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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:21 pm 
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Telemachos wrote:
I'm also surprised about the claims that Dain is CG. Huh? He's no more CG than any of the Dwarves we've seen before, unless maybe you're talking about a stunt double or something.


There seems to be pretty serious disagreement on that point. He must either be so outlandishly costumed that some took him for CG, or the CG must be exceptionally well-done.

Of course a CG double must be used when he's riding pigs and such. Maybe reviewers are picking up on that and failing to notice that he is in fact a guy in a costume at other times.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:22 pm 
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I don't think you need to use the spoiler tags. There is a spoiler warning in the thread title, so anyone avoiding spoilers isn't going to read this thread.

I'm glad to hear that you don't think Dain is CG.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:23 pm 
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Telemachos wrote:
The
Spoiler: show
worms
were completely unexpected, but I thought they were a cool touch (not to mention being an homage -- intended or not -- to DUNE). A friend of mine said afterwards he thought PJ decided to literally interpret some of Tolkien's language instead of treating it metaphorically:
Spoiler: show
the couple of references to the worms of the north; treating that as an actual definition instead of an alternate way of describing dragons


Maybe they are inspired by the
Spoiler: show
were-worms from beyond the last desert.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:25 pm 
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Dave_LF wrote:
Telemachos wrote:
I'm also surprised about the claims that Dain is CG. Huh? He's no more CG than any of the Dwarves we've seen before, unless maybe you're talking about a stunt double or something.


There seems to be pretty serious disagreement on that point. He must either be so outlandishly costumed that some took him for CG, or the CG must be exceptionally well-done.

Of course a CG double must be used when he's riding pigs and such. Maybe reviewers are picking up on that and failing to notice that he is in fact a guy in a costume at other times.



Hey Dave... long time no see. :) Yeah, he's in heavy battle armor and helmet, but he doesn't look more outlandish than, say, Thror or the battling Dwarves in the AUJ flashback. He looks pretty cool... he's got reddish hair in a mohawk, a big long whitish beard with some hair on either side teased up (and capped) with little tusks, which goes along nicely with the giant boar that he rides. He's, um, very Scottish, though. :D Billy Connolly through and through.

It wasn't even a question that I considered -- only after going online later did I find out about the CG claim.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:29 pm 
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Dave_LF wrote:
Maybe they are inspired by the
Spoiler: show
were-worms from beyond the last desert.


I love that idea!

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:31 pm 
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I hadn't thought of that, and it might well be true.

It's a great moment in the movie. Very unexpected; it's feels colossal and dangerous.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:33 pm 
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I miss Prim ...
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(I doubt Tele remembers me but I remember him fondly so - hello and welcome, Tele! :wave: )

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:34 pm 
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Of course I remember you. Dang, old names, old memories! :)


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:38 pm 
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Funny how these reunions tend to occur once a year or so. :) I'll miss that :|.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:44 pm 
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I doubt that you remember me, either, Telemachos, but I'm really glad to see you here! :wave:

And I'm going to cling to the belief that PJ was thinking about were-worms rather than accept that no one associated with that part of the production knew that "worm" can mean "dragon."

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― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:49 pm 
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Primula Baggins wrote:
I doubt that you remember me, either, Telemachos, but I'm really glad to see you here! :wave:

And I'm going to cling to the belief that PJ was thinking about were-worms rather than accept that no one associated with that part of the production knew that "worm" can mean "dragon."



I'd be staggered if that was the case. They've shown far more familiarity with the source and lore than would be considered normal in a film of this type. There's no way they didn't know Wyrm=Dragon. Just no way.

Hey Tele! :welcome:

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:53 pm 
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Telemachos wrote:
Of course I remember you. Dang, old names, old memories! :)


Even some new names can be associated with old memories! :)

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:53 pm 
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Hi Prim, of course I remember you. :) Whatever they were thinking, it's pretty badass on screen, and if it actually has some connection (however vague) to Tolkien, so much the better.

In fact, I thought the movie, for the most part, was more faithful than the other two: the digressions seemed less disruptive, the plot (and characters) more or less follow what happens in the book... if anything, I thought the weakest parts of the movie (overall) were post-Smaug/Laketown. We spend a few minutes dealing with Laketown people, and honestly aside from Bard I find them all pretty boring; glorified extras, as it were.

Alfred has a larger part in the movie than I expected: it's basically comic relief, it's all relatively brief moments, but I would've ditched that if I were PJ. Still, at the end of the day I felt the movie gives greater attention to the key characters, and that also makes it feel more faithful.

edit: Hi Alatar!


Last edited by Telemachos on Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:56 pm 
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Alatar wrote:
I'd be staggered if that was the case. They've shown far more familiarity with the source and lore than would be considered normal in a film of this type. There's no way they didn't know Wyrm=Dragon. Just no way.


That is so true. In the DoS appendices, in the section talking about the spiders, one of the VFX artists talks extremely intelligently and knowledgably about Ungoliant to a level that I found extremely impressive.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:47 pm 
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The quotes above are loopy—I was the one worrying that they did not know this, and Alatar was the one pointing out that they surely do. In any case, I do feel better!

ETA: It's fixed!

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“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:28 pm 
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Hey Tele, here is a question for you. I know you said that "Thranduil remains Ice Queen of Middle-Earth" but is there any sense at the end that he has the goodness that is reflected in the Elvenking in the book who says "Long will I tarry, ere I begin this war for gold."

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:33 pm 
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Not so much in reference to that specific line (generally, the way the sides are set up is that Thranduil is ready to take the Elvish share immediately and Bard is the one who initially wants to bargain), but he has a softer side that shows up both with Legolas and Tauriel (separately) at the end.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:42 pm 
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Passdagas the Brown wrote:
Also, though this person confirmed that a raven is in, he seems to imply that no raven was sent for Dain (and that it simply arrives, heralding Dain's approach). A strange way to go about it, I think.

However, I'm just thrilled that there's a raven in there somewhere!


Raven spoilers within!

Spoiler: show
In one shot (transitioning from (I think) Dale to the Mountain, you see a raven leave (from the main rampants where the Dwarves and Bilbo hang out). It's pretty specific and deliberate, though if you weren't paying attention it'd be possible to miss it.

Later, when Thorin is doing his final bargaining with Thranduil and Bard, the raven returns... and Thorin acknowledges it and says something to the effect that Dain has arrived.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:00 pm 
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Excellent, on both points. And I'm sure your old friend PtB will appreciate it when he comes back around.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:56 pm 
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Tel,

Thanks so much for the response! As Voronwë notes, we are indeed old friends (though I was once known by a different name...)

Let's just say that we launched a "raid" together on a particular place, and it involved the deployment of naughty versions of LOTR characters.

But don't guess publicly! I had to officially disassociate myself from my previous alias in order to meet a professional security clearance. :)

-PtB


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