JewelSong wrote:
It is? Where does it say that?
Revelation itself requires careful, careful study, and I hesitate to pick it apart too much. If you read that entire chapter, you should get the sense that there are 2 resurrections taking place here.
So, non-believers are judged according to their works, but people who have already professed belief in Christ - their works don't matter?
Yes, as far as I can tell to the first question. I was thinking about this after I responded to you. Verse 15 says, "Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire." It's interesting to consider if anyone in that group
will have his or her name written in the book of life. Growing up Baptist, I think the answer to that was always "no," but now I wonder. I guess I still lean toward "no," because if there were works I could do to earn my way to heaven, then Jesus was kind of pointless.
A believer's works do matter, but I believe in the sense that I've conveyed above. They are the proof of our genuine salvation. As others have pointed out, it does matter what we do after professing belief in Jesus Christ as the Messiah. People can definitely just give it lip service. Likewise, someone can do good works without having a relationship with God. I believe God wants both--a genuine relationship with him that will overflow into good works and a changed life.
Moreover, a believer's works are tested as to their value.
I Corinthians 3:10-15, "According to God's grace that was given to me, as a skilled master builder I have laid a foundation, and another builds on it. But each one must be careful how he builds on it, because no one can lay any other foundation than what has been laid—that is, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay, or straw, each one's work will become obvious, for the day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire; the fire will test the quality of each one's work. If anyone's work that he has built survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, it will be lost, but he will be saved; yet it will be like an escape through fire."
And where does this leave the "if you don't believe in Jesus, you are going to hell" camp?
I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean the Great White Throne Judgment (which is what is described in Rev. 20) and the judgment of non-believers by their works?
I think the key question is, "Will any non-believers' works be good enough to get them into heaven?" I'm glad God is the one who gets to make that final decision and not me.
Maria wrote:Any sort of judgment of a person's whole life that is not based their deeds is bogus.
Really? Why do you say this? Honestly, I'm quite glad that my salvation is not based upon my works alone. I guess I'm a big fan of the concepts of mercy and grace. Circling back around to Frelga's statement that Judaism doesn't believe in original sin, well, Christianity obviously does.
I'll give a personal example. I like to do what people would call good works. I'll pick one. Hmmm...giving clothes to Goodwill. I do that with as pure of motives as possible, but it doesn't take long to sort through my reasons to discover that there are some selfish motives in there (even if they are not at the forefront of my mind). It makes me happy to get rid of extra stuff, so my house is less cluttered. Maybe I like the way it makes me feel all good inside. Etc.
I try not to get too caught up in this line of thinking, because it can be depressing. And the truth is I believe God is still pleased with what I've done, because I've done it as purely
as possible for me.
But because of stuff like that, I'm very grateful that, when God looks at me, he sees the righteousness of Jesus instead, and he has mercy on me, knowing I'm doing the best I can. (Of course, there are times when I'm not doing the best I can, but that's a different discussion.)
I am saved by grace through faith, both of which are gifts from God to me, and not by my works, so I can't boast about what I've done to earn my way to heaven. (Lali's translation of Ephesians 2:8-9.)