Sin and Forgiveness

[JewelSong]

Yes, but that judgment is for the non-believers, Jewel.

It is? Where does it say that?

So, non-believers are judged according to their works, but people who have already professed belief in Christ - their works don't matter?

And where does this leave the "if you don't believe in Jesus, you are going to hell" camp?

[SirDennis]

This bit: ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ (Matt 7:23)

often makes me think of this bit:

“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” (John 13:34,35)

... and this bit:

"One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”
“Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.” (Mark 12:28-33)

... and most often this bit:

“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”(Matt 22 34:40)

In light of this bit:

"Brothers, if someone is caught in any wrongdoing, you who are spiritual should restore such a person with a gentle spirit, watching out for yourselves so you won't be tempted also. Carry one another's burdens; in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. For if anyone considers himself to be something when he is nothing, he is deceiving himself. But each person should examine his own work, and then he will have a reason for boasting in himself alone, and not in respect to someone else. For each person will have to carry his own load." (Galatians 6:1-5)

... I wonder if the temptation referred to is judging (the righteousness of) others, which would be the shortest path away from ‘Love your neighbor as yourself’ I can think of?

My understanding is similar to Lalaith's on the Revelation verse.

[Sunsilver]

Here's my belief, in as few a words as possible.

If you genuinely believe in Christ, and accept him as saviour, you will want to live a life that brings honour to his name.

I also believe that if you confess Jesus as saviour, then go ahead and break every one of the 10 commandments, you're going to have a tough time getting into heaven. However, if you genuinely repent of your sins, you can still be saved.

Those who give lip service to their belief only are hypocrites, like the Pharisees and Saducees Jesus reviled in that scripture I quoted.

[Frelga]

I don't have time (or expertise) for a full reply, but a brief clarification - the concept I said does not exist in Judaism is that of original sin.

[Maria]

Any sort of judgment of a person's whole life that is not based their deeds is bogus.

[nerdanel]

Jesus was a Jew, so when he says the Pharisees and Saducees won't escape Hell, obviously the concept of judgement for sins IS present in Judaism, even if it is not the same as in Christianity.

I'm sorry, Sunny, but I don't think that this follows rationally at all. A single Jew's views do not necessarily reflect Jewish doctrine, especially when that Jew has publicly broken with traditional Jewish understandings and teachings, as Jesus did. Some of Jesus' teachings reflect what might be considered a modern (Reform Jewish) sensibility. Others do not. For instance, Jesus' view that "No one can come to the Father except through me" cannot remotely be described as a concept within the Jewish tradition; to say that most Jews have found that statement exceedingly problematic, both then and now, is to state the matter quite softly. Let us be clear: Jesus and his followers broke with Judaism; they do not and cannot speak for Judaism, then or now. As Voronwë rightly points out, it is also not possible to attribute specific statements to Jesus, let alone Judaism, with any degree of reasonable certainty, based on texts that were codified decades after Jesus' death by writers (who had a defined non-Jewish religious agenda that Jesus may or may not have shared).

There is no definitive Jewish view on the afterlife: the religion does not purport to address definitively what humans cannot know. Maimonides, a renowned Torah scholar of the Middle Ages, articulated the resurrection of the dead as one of his Thirteen Principles of Faith, to which principles Orthodox Jews still subscribe. While some liberal (Conservative/Reconstruction/Reform) Jews also accept the Thirteen Principles, it is telling that the language in the Amidah about Hashem "giv[ing] life to the dead" has been removed from many liberal Shabbat prayerbooks - or at least listed along with a competing alternative that does not refer to bodily resurrection of the dead (and with commentary that notes that there is no liberal Jewish consensus belief on resurrection).

In modern times, there is a hazy Jewish eschatological concept of the World to Come, Olam Haba. It sometimes refers to an afterlife, in which it is believed that both righteous Jews and Gentiles (Noachides) will share: it is laudably accepted across all the denominations of Judaism that conversion or specific Jewish beliefs are not necessary for a non-Jewish person to share in whatever rewards may theoretically await the righteous. The closest Jewish theory that I've heard of to "hell" is Gehinnom, which is really more akin to purgatory: a purification period for wicked souls before they can ascend to Olam Haba. Here, Jewish theory is much kinder than modern prison terms: the purification period is one year, with Shabbat excluded each week. Again, Gehinnom is not a universal Jewish belief.

I think it bears emphasizing that Judaism is a prescriptive religion focused on mitzvot, on the performance of commandments and deeds by the living in the here-and-now. The theories described above do not figure centrally in most Jewish services. Judaism neither burdens its members with Original Sin nor overly focuses their attention on a hypothetical existence after death. Its focus is so prescriptive that I have been repeatedly told by both Conservative and Reform Jews that my lack of religious faith is no obstacle to my active participation in Jewish ritual and observance, if I desire (or even to conversion, depending on the denomination). When speaking to adherents of faith-central religions that have a very specific vision of an afterlife, it is sometimes difficult to convey this huge religious-culture gap: Jewish eschatology is simply not a very central part of Judaism.

[SirDennis]

If you genuinely believe in Christ, and accept him as saviour, you will want to live a life that brings honour to his name.

I agree. But how to go about bringing honour to His name is the tricky part. When Christ says (referring to himself) in Matt 19:17 "there is only one who is good," and Paul says in Romans 3:28 "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law" I question whether the Holiness Movement has it correct.

But as I said before I do believe that through God all things are possible. Either way I am not saying once you are saved anything goes... how does that work in any relationship? Not very well at all. (There is of course that one commandment about keeping the Sabbath Holy that remains a stumbling block or at least a question mark for some. I believe Jesus is right (obviously) when he says "love your neighbour as yourself" is a proper summary of the Commandments given to Moses.)

As for support for the second part of your statement of belief, there is Ezekiel 18:24

“But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die."

This touches on the Revelation question as well, as it applies to one who is already "righteous."

Same goes for Ezekiel 33:13

"When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his own righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die."

But then there is Romans 3 (I tried to whittle it down to a few key verses but the style in which it is written forces you to be ever conscious of the context of each saying):

All Have Sinned

9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
10 As it is written:


“ There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
13 “ Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;[c]

“ The poison of asps is under their lips”;[d]
14 “ Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”[e]
15 “ Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”[f]
18 “ There is no fear of God before their eyes.”[g]

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

God’s Righteousness Through Faith

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[h] who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Boasting Excluded

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

(btw vs 10 is based on Psalm 14.)

For the record, I'm not throwing out all these verses to overwhelm anyone or show prowess, I'm just trying to let the Bible speak for itself rather than asking you to rely on my understanding, nor especially my lack of understanding.

ETA due to xpost with Maria

Any sort of judgment of a person's whole life that is not based their deeds is bogus.

Where does this leave us in regard to Mathew 5:28 "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." ? This gets at a main idea expressed in the Mathew 7 verse SunSilver provided: not only outward deeds are taken into consideration when God judges His people.

[WampusCat]

Well said, nel. I have had many enlightening discussions with my close friend who is a rabbi about what Judaism is and isn't. There are so many misconceptions, mainly coming from Christians who assume that what they read in the Bible is what Judaism is.

She says that modern Judaism is more of a sibling than a parent of Christianity; they both grew out of the same religion at about the same time. Modern Judaism really only took shape after the destruction of the Temple. Same root, different branches.

[Sunsilver]

Wow...Nel, I need a cup of coffee, then I will come back and digest what you said more completely!

As for Jesus's religion, here's what the New Testament says:

Mark 1:21 And they went into Caper'na-um; and immediately on the Sabbath he entered the synagogue and taught. 22 And they were astonished at his teaching, for he taught them as one who had authority, and not as the scribes.

Luke 2:
42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast. 43 And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it. 44 But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day's journey; and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance. 45 And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him.

46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions. 47 And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.

So, Jesus had an excellent knowledge of the scriptures and law from a very early age, and frequently quoted scripture in his teachings. However, his claim to be the son of God and the King of the Jews was heresy to most Jews, and was one of the main reasons for his eventual crucifixion. When Pontius Pilate had a sign put on Jesus's cross that said "King of the Jews", the priests found that so offensive that they asked it to be changed to read "he says he is King of the Jews."

John 20:

4 Once more Pilate came out and said to the Jews gathered there, “Look, I am bringing him out to you to let you know that I find no basis for a charge against him.” 5 When Jesus came out wearing the crown of thorns and the purple robe, Pilate said to them, “Here is the man!”

6 As soon as the chief priests and their officials saw him, they shouted, “Crucify! Crucify!”

But Pilate answered, “You take him and crucify him. As for me, I find no basis for a charge against him.”

7 The Jewish leaders insisted, “We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God.” .....


19 Pilate had a notice prepared and fastened to the cross. It read: JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS. 20 Many of the Jews read this sign, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, and the sign was written in Aramaic, Latin and Greek. 21 The chief priests of the Jews protested to Pilate, “Do not write ‘The King of the Jews,’ but that this man claimed to be king of the Jews.”

22 Pilate answered, “What I have written, I have written.”

[anthriel]

Quite an interesting discussion.

[Lalaith]

It is? Where does it say that?

Revelation itself requires careful, careful study, and I hesitate to pick it apart too much. If you read that entire chapter, you should get the sense that there are 2 resurrections taking place here.

So, non-believers are judged according to their works, but people who have already professed belief in Christ - their works don't matter?

Yes, as far as I can tell to the first question. I was thinking about this after I responded to you. Verse 15 says, "Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire." It's interesting to consider if anyone in that group will have his or her name written in the book of life. Growing up Baptist, I think the answer to that was always "no," but now I wonder. I guess I still lean toward "no," because if there were works I could do to earn my way to heaven, then Jesus was kind of pointless.

A believer's works do matter, but I believe in the sense that I've conveyed above. They are the proof of our genuine salvation. As others have pointed out, it does matter what we do after professing belief in Jesus Christ as the Messiah. People can definitely just give it lip service. Likewise, someone can do good works without having a relationship with God. I believe God wants both--a genuine relationship with him that will overflow into good works and a changed life.

Moreover, a believer's works are tested as to their value.

I Corinthians 3:10-15, "According to God's grace that was given to me, as a skilled master builder I have laid a foundation, and another builds on it. But each one must be careful how he builds on it, because no one can lay any other foundation than what has been laid—that is, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay, or straw, each one's work will become obvious, for the day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire; the fire will test the quality of each one's work. If anyone's work that he has built survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, it will be lost, but he will be saved; yet it will be like an escape through fire."

And where does this leave the "if you don't believe in Jesus, you are going to hell" camp?

I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean the Great White Throne Judgment (which is what is described in Rev. 20) and the judgment of non-believers by their works?

I think the key question is, "Will any non-believers' works be good enough to get them into heaven?" I'm glad God is the one who gets to make that final decision and not me.

Any sort of judgment of a person's whole life that is not based their deeds is bogus.

Really? Why do you say this? Honestly, I'm quite glad that my salvation is not based upon my works alone. I guess I'm a big fan of the concepts of mercy and grace. Circling back around to Frelga's statement that Judaism doesn't believe in original sin, well, Christianity obviously does.

I'll give a personal example. I like to do what people would call good works. I'll pick one. Hmmm...giving clothes to Goodwill. I do that with as pure of motives as possible, but it doesn't take long to sort through my reasons to discover that there are some selfish motives in there (even if they are not at the forefront of my mind). It makes me happy to get rid of extra stuff, so my house is less cluttered. Maybe I like the way it makes me feel all good inside. Etc.

I try not to get too caught up in this line of thinking, because it can be depressing. And the truth is I believe God is still pleased with what I've done, because I've done it as purely as possible for me.

But because of stuff like that, I'm very grateful that, when God looks at me, he sees the righteousness of Jesus instead, and he has mercy on me, knowing I'm doing the best I can. (Of course, there are times when I'm not doing the best I can, but that's a different discussion.)

I am saved by grace through faith, both of which are gifts from God to me, and not by my works, so I can't boast about what I've done to earn my way to heaven. (Lali's translation of Ephesians 2:8-9.)

[Maria]

I knew that what I said wouldn't be sufficient. Now you are making me think!

OK, take the word judgment:

judg·ment
   noun
1.
an act or instance of judging.

2.
the ability to judge, make a decision, or form an opinion objectively, authoritatively, and wisely, especially in matters affecting action; good sense; discretion: a man of sound judgment.

3.
the demonstration or exercise of such ability or capacity: The major was decorated for the judgment he showed under fire.

4.
the forming of an opinion, estimate, notion, or conclusion, as from circumstances presented to the mind: Our judgment as to the cause of his failure must rest on the evidence.

5.
the opinion formed: He regretted his hasty judgment.

IF judgment of a person's life is to occur when it is over, then the judging party ought to take into account the whole of that person's life, especially their actions. Actions ought to count more than thoughts, since they often affect other beings.

Belief and faith and "being saved" are states of mind and don't really hurt anyone else unless you take action. Since the action can hurt or help someone else, then it ought to count for more.

If I kicked my cat, is that a good or bad deed? Usually, the answer would be "bad", but if the cat was in the process of hurting some other living being, and needed to be stopped, then stopping his action would be a good deed.

As far as I'm concerned the only real sin is hurting someone or something unnnecessarily. The only judgment necessary should be whether or not all the hurt I've caused in my life was necessary or not and whether or not the happinesss I've caused balances that out. And whether or not the times I haven't taken action were good or bad things.

I don't believe that anyone should get a free pass on their actions simply for professing a particular belief about the supernatural. (I'm not saying you are saying that, but some people act that way.)

Fortunately for my peace of mind, I doubt much external judging goes on when life is over. It's probably self-judgment by the higher self that determines the next step.

[SirDennis]

Ooh sorry Maria! I completely missed the context in which your comment was made. Thank you for taking the time to lay it all out for us.

I really appreciate the most recent sayings of Lali as well.

[Lalaith]

Those are interesting thoughts, Maria. What you've described actually makes me think that intent is more important than the action itself. You kicked the cat. As you said, "Why?" If you kicked the cat to be mean, then that's a sin. If you kicked the cat because it was the only way to stop it from hurting something else, then that would not be a sin. God looks to the heart for the motives behind deeds.

There is a Bible verse that talks about how sin (the action) begins as a thought. (James 1:15 might be it, but I think there's another one that I'm actually thinking of instead.) Therefore, I don't believe that actions are more important than thoughts. I'd almost lean toward saying thoughts are more important than actions, but, no, I'm sticking with my original statement that both are equally important and cannot really be separated for the believer.

I don't believe that anyone should get a free pass on their actions simply for professing a particular belief about the supernatural.

And we agree on that point. I just won't go to the extreme of saying that what you believe doesn't matter at all or matters less than what you do.

[Maria]

I'm sorry, Sir Dennis! I should have replied to you as well, but my brain seems to have a skip function in it. Whenever someone puts those .... whatever they are called.... those thingys that denote who said what/where in the Bible, my mind just kind of skips over that section and the following quotation.

It's terrible, I know. My only excuse is that as an "appeal to authority" the Bible has absolutely no significance to me. Except in a negative way, I guess, since I *do* skip over sections marked that way. I don't even notice I'm doing it unless something like this pops up. "Oh, was I addressed? Yes, I was! Oh, dear!"

I really shouldn't try to keep up in these conversations. I really don't have the background for it.


edit: and I still didn't read whatever it was you quoted! I'm terrible!


edit 2: OK I read it. ""But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." ? "

That's just weird. It's like one of those Star Trek Voyager crew members who gets sentanced to death for getting mad at someone. Not sensible.

[JewelSong]

I just won't go to the extreme of saying that what you believe doesn't matter at all or matters less than what you do.

I will. Go to that extreme, that is.

I think what you do and what is in your heart matters far more than what god you believe in, what prayers you pray and what book you read. I think what you believe matters ONLY in how much that belief informs your actions and your life.

In other words, I believe that Hindus and Buddhists and Muslims and Jains and Shintoists and Confucianists and Taoists and Sikhs and Jews and non-believers and the rest of humanity ALL may be allowed "in." That God's immense and never-ending love is big enough and inclusive enough for everyone. That since God = Love, it follows that Love = God.

I have a Christian background, I have worked as a church music minister and I currently work in a Catholic school. I am pretty comfortable with the trappings of Christianity, mostly because that is what I am used to. However, I think it is vitally important that I - that WE - familiarize ourselves with other faith traditions, even those outside our comfort zone.

The alternative is that a huge percentage of the world is going to hell, simply because they don't believe in the "right" god in the "right" way. And if THAT is how God functions...well...I'll pass.

[Maria]

More thoughts on *whoever that was* that said that bit about lusty thoughts.

I think what they were trying to explain was that it's easier to resist things you shouldn't want if you don't allow yourself to want them. It's a technique I use a lot, especially since my diet became so restricted. Instead of longing for the bread I cannot have, every time I find myself wanting it I remind myself that it's chock full of things that make me ill and had microorganisms growing unchecked in it for HOURS. Ewwwwwww.

That's the concept. I don't allow myself to WANT the bread and risk getting to the point I have to try some. I nip it in the bud the minute it appears and make up all kinds of reasons why the bread is icky. And make myself believe it until even the smell is unpleasant.

I suspect that sort of mental discipline is what that person is trying to explain- and either botched the telling of it, or it's been lost in translation and retelling.

If a god would design a world where people would be punished for thoughts they don't plan to act upon and never did while they had a body to do so ...... well, that's just not very nice.

And not very likely in my opinion.

[SirDennis]

I'm sorry, Sir Dennis! I should have replied to you as well, but my brain seems to have a skip function in it. Whenever someone puts those .... whatever they are called.... those thingys that denote who said what/where in the Bible, my mind just kind of skips over that section and the following quotation.

It's terrible, I know. My only excuse is that as an "appeal to authority" the Bible has absolutely no significance to me. Except in a negative way, I guess, since I *do* skip over sections marked that way. I don't even notice I'm doing it unless something like this pops up. "Oh, was I addressed? Yes, I was! Oh, dear!"

I really shouldn't try to keep up in these conversations. I really don't have the background for it.


edit: and I still didn't read whatever it was you quoted! I'm terrible!


edit 2: OK I read it. ""But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." ? "

That's just weird. It's like one of those Star Trek Voyager crew members who gets sentanced to death for getting mad at someone. Not sensible.

I _was_ wondering why responses to my posts were spotty at times

Actually Lali's points about intent carry a lot of weight, even in our justice system.

[axordil]

Which is worse, to intend to do evil and fail, bringing about a good, or to intend to do good and fail, bringing about an evil?

Not trolling. Intent vs. effect is a fundamental moral question, whether or not there's a religious dimension.

[Sunsilver]

To go back to what Lali said about the judgement of non-believers:

My understanding is that those who are being judged are the ones who never had the chance to hear the Gospel of Jesus. How could they be judged by their belief if they were born many years before Christ?

I think the Gospel makes it quite clear that those who reject Christ are going to be cast into the lake of fire: Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."