Did Ilúvatar intend Melkor to be evil???

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Lúthien Tinuviel
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Did Ilúvatar intend Melkor to be evil???

Post by Lúthien Tinuviel »

A simple question: :D

Has Ilúvatar intended for Melkor to be evil from the very begining,
or did Melkor,due to his own course of actions,
desiring power,dominion and kingship over Arda,
became evil and self-centered???

:? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :?

And if Ilúvatar did not intend Melkor to be evil,why didnt he try to
stop the evil Melkor was doing in Arda from the start,by ifluencing him
or maybe even destroying him?


...well the question is not as simple as I said it would be...:P
Anyway,post your opinions here...and let the discussion begin!!!... :D
...Lúthien Tinúviel...
..."fairer then mortal tongue can tell"...
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Voronwë the Faithful
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

I'll answer your second question, briefly. Eru didn't destroy Melkor, or force him away from being evil, because to do so would have destroyed free will in Arda.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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Alatar
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Post by Alatar »

Ah but if everything is pre-destined by the music, then maybe Melkor was pre-destined by Eru! ;)
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Voronwë the Faithful
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Well, the implication is that Melkor's discord was counter to the themes of Ilúvatar, but arguably Melkor's discord enabled the second and third themes.

But I don't really believe that.

And while it is true that all things ultimately flow from Eru's will, I am a firm believer that the children of Eru (and the Ainur) all also have free will (though not necessarily independent of Eru's ultimate overall will.
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Lúthien Tinuviel
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Post by Lúthien Tinuviel »

We all know that Ilúvatar,of all ainur, gave the greatest powers to Melkor:
''Mighty are the Ainur, and the mightiest among them is Melkor''
And by giving him great powers,Ilúvatar enabled Melkor to do great evils
in Arda,and also,he did not even seem to overly care to what was
happening to his Firstborn and Secondborn children in Arda...
If it was not for Eärendil who begged the valar for pardon,
Beleriand would have remained under the dominion of Melkor....

Ilúvatar could have done a " little timely intervention" like he did with Númenor...



:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D


And I am not talking about Ilúvatar stripping Melkor of his free will,
but simply too many people in Beleriand were suffering because of the
carelessness of Ilúvatar and the Valar...

...My opinion is that we can partly blame Eru Ilúvatar for everything
Melkor has done,because Ilúvatar has given him such immense powers,
and created him evil from the begining,and then allowed him to do as he
pleases...
...Lúthien Tinúviel...
..."fairer then mortal tongue can tell"...
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Post by Alatar »

Is that you Wildwood? :suspicious:
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Lúthien Tinuviel
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Post by Lúthien Tinuviel »

Anyway,my point is,that Ilúvatar could have prevented Melkor from doing
evil in Arda,just like he prevented Sauron from doing evil in Númenor...

...when... "Manwë, chief of the Valar, called upon Ilúvatar, who broke and changed the world, taking Aman and Tol Eressëa from the world forever, changing the world's shape from flat to round. Númenor was covered by great waves and sank into the abyss, killing its inhabitants, including the body of Sauron, who was thereby robbed of his ability to assume fair and charming forms."

I sometimes wonder why Ilúvatar did not do this to
Melkor in the First Age???
:? :? :? :? :? :? :?
...It would have been so much easier for everyone... :D
Last edited by Lúthien Tinuviel on Fri Nov 26, 2010 4:14 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Lúthien Tinuviel
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Post by Lúthien Tinuviel »

Alatar wrote:Is that you Wildwood? :suspicious:
What do you mean by that??? :scratch:

:? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :?
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vison
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Post by vison »

I think Wildwood joined here a long time ago?
Dig deeper.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Yup. Lúthien, Wildwood is renowned for using lots of :D emoticons. That's why Alatar was wondering.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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Lúthien Tinuviel
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Post by Lúthien Tinuviel »

Oh???... About the emoticons...sorry... :D

:sorry:
...but I just love them so much... :love: :love: :love: :love: :love:

:halo:
...Lúthien Tinúviel...
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Primula Baggins
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Post by Primula Baggins »

Use them all you like, Lúthien! It's perfectly fine. People were just wondering whether you might be someone many of us know from another board. Mere coincidence!
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Lúthien Tinuviel
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Post by Lúthien Tinuviel »

No harm done,Primula... :D
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Post by axordil »

I think I agree with V-man, in that the existence of free will is something that cannot be inferred, but must be demonstrated. In other words, if the only choice ever made is to do good/the right thing/what God (Eru) would like, free will remains in an indeterminate state.

Someone has to screw up to prove you can. :blackeye:
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