Most of the other items on solicitr's list get my goat more than the Beacons scene. The Mouth of Sauron murder, for instance -- it's so wrong and out of character I have to avert my eyes.
We could have a thread on this topic: "If I could completely redo ONE MINUTE's worth of PJ's LOTR, how would I use those sixty seconds?"
Seriously, I'm with Di. I didn't think about it too much. I loved the music in this scene, so it is one of my favorites. I did think about the improbable height of some of the mountains and having people posted there all of the time. And I did think, like kams, "Ehhhhh, yeeeeaaah, not buying the whole lava/ring/Gollum bit."
(I guess the scientific improbabilities stuck out to me more than anything else.)
Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:Yes. Perhaps the very lowest point of the films, IMHO.
yov wrote:In the movie, Denethor has become lost by grief, despair, and arrogance by the time Gandalf arrives and from the film POV there's nothing wrong about that. I find the portrayal of the lord gone mad very compelling and well-done, both tragic and frightening, despite all the fan wishes that he was more like in the book.
Yov, with all due respect, you are the one that is applying your book knowledge to make the depiction work. You know that Denethor was a noble man who was driven to madness by grief and despair, so you find the portrayal compelling and well-done. But a person who is not familiar with the book sees little or no hint of that noble leader, so they just see a selfish jerk gone mad. Even a small glimpse of Denethor acting wisely and in command would have gone a long way to making the portrayal compelling and well-done for the non-book-reader, as well.
Actually, I'm not doing that at all. I'm saying that film-wise Denethor is a pretty bad person and that's okay. It's not "wrong" that Denethor is such a crazy jerk, merely different then what the readers expected.
And I absolutely think it is the correct and moral thing to do to wrench power from a man who has essentially decided to damn his city to a slow suicide!
solicitr wrote:Because the Ring is actually made of the gold isotope orodruinium
But seriously, folks...
It is pervasive throughout the films tht PJ has the 'good' characters act in a manner that is both immoral (or unethical), and directly the opposite from their actions in the book scene. Notoriously there is the beheading of the Mouth of Sauron, but there's also
The dialog turned upside-down so that Aragorn *advocates* ambushing the old man in Fangorn
Faramir's men doing a Rodney King on Gollum
Gandalf's preventing Saruman's killing only "because we need information"
Théoden waffling over honoring his duty under the Oath of Eorl
AGL beating down Meduseld's security detail in what looks remarkably like a palace coup
Entmoot- a decision changed from courage to faineance, to be restored only by Pippin's trickery. A twofer.
Almost everything to do with Elrond and Arwen's mutual manipulation
While Tolkien does give us several examples of persons violating orders for what is advanced as good cause: Éomer letting AGL go, Faramir letting FSG go, Éowyn/Dernhelm, Hama at the doors... in none of these cases is the act inherently wrong, merely disobedient.
Teremia wrote:We could have a thread on this topic: "If I could completely redo ONE MINUTE's worth of PJ's LOTR, how would I use those sixty seconds?"
:):):):):):):):)
yovargas wrote:And I absolutely think it is the correct and moral thing to do to wrench power from a man who has essentially decided to damn his city to a slow suicide!
I agree with this 100%.
I do hate Faramir's men beating Gollum up. And Gandalf hitting Denethor. And Denethor on fire and Ganders not doing a damn thing about it. Hate Frodo sending Sam away. Hate Gandalf falling off Shadowfax when WiKi appears.
Apart from that, I love the films. Obviously.
"Frodo undertook his quest out of love - to save the world he knew from disaster at his own expense, if he could ... " Letter no. 246, The Collected Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien Avatar by goldlighticons on Live Journal
I see Mr V's dissatisfaction with the justiication for the beacon lighting but I'm afraid that once PJ set down his portrayal of Denethor, Mr V's suggestion won't work. PJ's Denethor has to remain a contemptible villain.
If I had the task of making that scene resonate I would have a Gondorian soldier overhear Denethor's rejection of help and have him light the beacon on his own initiative. Far truer to Tolkien.
Of all the problems I have with that scene - like the positioning of the beacons above cloud cover on inaccessible peaks that bugs me so much I forget to listen to the music - that was one that has never occurred to me.
Of course Aragorn isn't lying. Gondor calls for aid. Even if Denethor is not.
Di wrote:
my mind is already telling me that it's Gondor calling for aid, and so the more disturbing implications of the film scene (that Movie Gandalf has performed a trick) just completely go over my head. They probably went right over the non-Tolkien audience's head too.
Gondor is in desperate straits. It is crying out for aid. Only Denethor refuses to face the reality of the situation.
There is magic in long-distance friendships. They let you relate to other human beings in a way that goes beyond being physically together and is often more profound.
~Diana Cortes
And I absolutely think it is the correct and moral thing to do to wrench power from a man who has essentially decided to damn his city to a slow suicide!
I agree with this 100%.
And I disagree 100%. Gandalf was not a man of Gondor. He had no right whatsoever to remove Gondor's lawful ruler, any more than he would have had the right to remove a senile Théoden and place Éomer on the throne- that would have been no better than Saruman. The Istari explicitly were given the authority only to counsel, not dictate.
yovargas wrote:I'd say once you tell your city to go kill itself, you've pretty much removed yourself from power. Seems so obvious to me.
And unfortunately, history is full of examples when that didn't happen. I mean, they were not removed from power. This is was social "legitimacy" is all about, and what it does to you. Sucks.
'You just said "your getting shorter": you've obviously been drinking too much ent-draught and not enough Prim's.' - Jude
Are you sure you've thought through the ramifications of what you're saying? Remember: Gondor was not Gandalf's country. He was a foreigner. Had say Imrahil staged a coup that might be rather different: Gondor's internal affairs, as it were.
solicitr, social legitimacy of a person in power stays irrespective of whether the "usurper" is from their own country or another. That's what legitimacy is about. Example: just because you are born to a king's family gives you legitimacy to be a king, even if you are a moron.
Regarding your question about Gandalf not being from Gondor - there should me some merit in keeping humanity over nationalism.
These situations are too complex to apply a hard and fast rule. So I would be wary of applying a rule of " you are from outside this country, and hence you can't do a thing."
'You just said "your getting shorter": you've obviously been drinking too much ent-draught and not enough Prim's.' - Jude
Hell, I wouldn't even call what Gandalf did "assuming power". It was more like trying to move a car out of the way of an incoming train. "But I didn't give you permission to move my car!" Really?? Um, too bad.
I agree with soli on this one. And the thing is, it just wasn't necessary. They didn't have to portray Denethor as such an unredeemable jerk from the get-go. And I'm not saying that out of some purist inclination. I just think it would have been a better story all around.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
And Gandalf hitting Denethor. 
Hate Frodo sending Sam away. Hate Gandalf falling off Shadowfax when WiKi appears.
Only Denethor refuses to face the reality of the situation.
(Why did PJ extend that???)
