"Gondor calls for aid!" (and other movie changes)

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Many people have praised the lighting of the beacons of Gondor scene. And justly so; it is a breathtaking and highly moving mix of sight and sound. However, as powerful as this scene is in isolation, the more I think about it, the more I realize that viewed as part of the whole it exacerbates several problems with the films. Worse, with a small adjustment it could have been just as powerful, but instead of exacerbating those problems, it could have helped to fix them.

As we know, when Halifirien, the last beacon, is lit, Aragorn sees it and races to Meduseld and cries "The beacons of Minas Tirith! The beacons are lit! Gondor calls for aid." And Théoden replies, "And Rohan will answer. Muster the Rohirrim!"

But as we know, Gondor didn't call for aid. In fact, Gondor refused to call for aid. It was just a trick of Gandalf's to fool Théoden into thinking that Gondor called for aid. This turns Aragorn into an unwitting lier. It diminishes Théoden's honorable decision to respond to the call for help. And, most importantly, it diminishes both Denethor and Gondor itself, contributing the sense that Denethor has already lost control (if he ever had control), and that Gondor was bereft of all nobility.

Much better would have been if the scene where Gandalf gets Pippin to light the first beacon had been replaced by a short scene in which Denethor is shown commanding that the beacon be lit, and Gandalf and Pippin shown seeing it light. The rest of the scene could then play out exactly the way it does in the film, with the breathtaking images and music, culminating in Aragorn spying the Halifirien bursting into flame, and announcing (truly!) that Gondor called for aid.

This would have been a win-win alternative. Not only would it have been more true to the book, it also would have given Denethor a much more interesting character arc, and one that would have been much less upsetting to fans of the book. Rather than being shown as a broken, pathetic man from the beginning, we could have scene him as being the commanding lord of Gondor, proud and arrogant perhaps, but still wise and noble and firmly in command, and then descend through learning of the death of his beloved first son Boromir, and then the apparent mortal wounding through his own pigheaded arrogance of his remaining son Faramir, and the foreknowledge of the apparent fall of the city of Minas Tirith, into madness.

That one small change could have gone a long way towards mitigating the problems in the presentation of the character of Denethor, both from an adaptation and from a basic film-making perspective. And it would have eliminated the element of both Aragorn and Théoden being fooled into falsely believing that "Gondor calls for aid!"

[Teremia]

You want your Movie-Magic Cake with slightly more Purist Frosting? Nawwwwww. Won't work. The problem is that you are thinking too logically -- not cinematically:

Much better would have been if the scene where Gandalf gets Pippin to light the first beacon had been replaced by a short scene in which Denethor is shown commanding that the beacon be lit, and Gandalf and Pippin shown seeing it light.

The problem is that Denethor giving a command of that sort and then Gandalf and Pippin WATCHING just isn't very interesting as a scene -- we want our heroes to be at the center of the action! And it's also not true to the emotional messages of the film, in which Gandalf acts and Denethor's a despairing old rotter. Changing one little scene would not change the tone of the whole film -- it would just seem terribly inconsistent.

And passive and dull, for the reasons at the top of the previous paragraph.

I think that easier than changing a scene from the film might be changing (through hypnosis and suggestion?) that little bit of your brain where the Beacon scene is being interpreted. Tell that bit of your amazing brain THIS in as convincing a voice as you can muster:

It is not a lie! Gandalf knows what Gondor really needs to do, and that is to summon aid! Gandalf is just acting in loco parentis for the disabled Denethor! The Beacons speak the truth! And Aragorn speaks the truth! And besides, Aragorn is the king of that place really, so he really knows in his heart what Gondor really needs to do!

Hope this works.

[Frelga]

Of all the problems I have with that scene - like the positioning of the beacons above cloud cover on inaccessible peaks that bugs me so much I forget to listen to the music - that was one that has never occurred to me.

Of course Aragorn isn't lying. Gondor calls for aid. Even if Denethor is not.

But I agree. The movie would've been better if it showed the unraveling of the mighty leader that Denehtor was, and if Théoden hasn't flip-flopped at a dizzying rate from "Where was Gondor?" to "And Rohan will answer!" with no explanation.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Sorry, Teremia, but I utterly disagree with you. I think the filmmakers erred in being locked into this dynamic that everything has to revolve around the "heroes". I agree with Viggo, when he said recently "I’d have allowed the secondary characters to speak more and not be so focused on the heroes."

As for Gandalf and Pippin watching being passive, that part of the scene would be the equivalent of the part in the actual film when Gandalf watches the beacon be lit, and says the great line "hope is kindled." In fact, he could say the exact same line and it would have much more meaning because it would be truly the result of someone else's affirmative action, and not his own trickery.

Of course Aragorn isn't lying. Gondor calls for aid. Even if Denethor is not.

But no one from Gondor actually makes the decision to call for aid. Gandalf does so, and Pippin implements it. The keepers of the first beacon are chagrined, just like Denethor is. The keepers of all of the following beacons are all just as fooled as Aragorn and Théoden; they only light their beacons because they believe that Denethor or someone else in power at Minas Tirith has called for them to do so.

Book Faramir would not even trap an Orc with a falsehood, but movie Gandalf has no compunctions about fooling all of Gondor and Rohan, and Aragorn, with a falsehood.

[Frelga]

Oh, I agree with all that, V!

[Pearly Di]

You want your Movie-Magic Cake with slightly more Purist Frosting? Nawwwwww. Won't work. The problem is that you are thinking too logically -- not cinematically:

I agree with Teremia.

But I also agree that Denethor's character was shafted horribly, and it needn't have been that way.

I am sure that all this revisionism of his text would have made Tolkien wince with pain.

However: as a person actually watching the film and caught up in it, it wouldn't even have occurred to me that Movie Gandalf was being duplicitious. Well, it didn't occur to me. At all. I was far too caught up in the splendour of the scene. (Even if, as Frelga says, the logistical improbability of there being anyone present at 12,000 feet to light those jolly beacons is pretty glaring. )

And I know the story, so my mind is already telling me that it's Gondor calling for aid, and so the more disturbing implications of the film scene (that Movie Gandalf has performed a trick) just completely go over my head. They probably went right over the non-Tolkien audience's head too.

It's only now that Voronwë has raised the issue that it has even occurred to me.

I guess that for me the visuals say it all.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Di, it never occurred to me either until it popped into my head today. But if these films are going to be thought of in the same terms as the book, they need to be able to stand the test of time.

As for the the logistical improbability of there being anyone present at 12,000 feet to light those jolly beacons, that kind of thing never has bothered me, and I doubt that it ever will. Because there is no moral inconsistency there.

[Alatar]

However V, there are as many logical inconsistencies in the book, and we happily overlook those!

[Voronwë the Faithful]

No, we talk about them all the time! (Like, for instance, the moral dilemna of the Orcs as completely evil creatures, etc.)

[Alatar]

My personal favourite is the magical disappearing wargs in Hollin. Sauron could've used some of those at the Pelennor!

[vison]

A rattling good discussion about the Orcs is just what we need!

[Frelga]

Tom Bombadil sent those. They are, like him, an enigma.

[yovargas]

...and if Théoden hasn't flip-flopped at a dizzying rate from "Where was Gondor?" to "And Rohan will answer!" with no explanation.

This is imo the far bigger problem because it's a inconsistency with what the movie is as opposed to what one may want it to be. Théoden's attitudes sadly go this way and that without explanation about a few things which make it look like the writers didn't ever quite get a handle on what they wanted his character to be. Unlike Denethor. In the movie, Denethor has become lost by grief, despair, and arrogance by the time Gandalf arrives and from the film POV there's nothing wrong about that. I find the portrayal of the lord gone mad very compelling and well-done, both tragic and frightening, despite all the fan wishes that he was more like in the book.

And I certainly see nothing deceptive, immoral, or inconsistent about Gandalf's actions. He's merely going against Denethor's wishes. What's wrong with that?

[narya]

As for the the logistical improbability of there being anyone present at 12,000 feet to light those jolly beacons, that kind of thing never has bothered me, and I doubt that it ever will. Because there is no moral inconsistency there.

What about the morality and cost of posting some poor guys to beacon duty for decades?

[solicitr]

And I certainly see nothing deceptive, immoral, or inconsistent about Gandalf's actions. He's merely going against Denethor's wishes. What's wrong with that?

Because in Gondor, and over Gondor's military communications, Denethor's wishes are the law. Not Gandalf's. Gandalf exercises no legal authority at all here, and this scene where Gandalf usurps Denethor's authority sets up the execrable scene where Gandalf forcibly usurps Denethor's position- an idea which would have shocked and appalled Tolkien. Deposing legitimate rulers because they don't have the "right" policies smacks of the Cold War CIA.

[Frelga]

Soli - well, that's sort of what happens in the book, eventually. When Denethor locks himself up and doesn't come out, Gandalf does take authority. The big difference, of course, is that in the book, Denethor does say "follow whom you will" and Gandalf takes command openly, and with support from Imrahil.

That said, I do agree with you. The m-Gandalf's assault on Denethor in the full view of his hapless soldiers... really doesn't fly, IMO.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Yes. Perhaps the very lowest point of the films, IMHO.

In the movie, Denethor has become lost by grief, despair, and arrogance by the time Gandalf arrives and from the film POV there's nothing wrong about that. I find the portrayal of the lord gone mad very compelling and well-done, both tragic and frightening, despite all the fan wishes that he was more like in the book.

Yov, with all due respect, you are the one that is applying your book knowledge to make the depiction work. You know that Denethor was a noble man who was driven to madness by grief and despair, so you find the portrayal compelling and well-done. But a person who is not familiar with the book sees little or no hint of that noble leader, so they just see a selfish jerk gone mad. Even a small glimpse of Denethor acting wisely and in command would have gone a long way to making the portrayal compelling and well-done for the non-book-reader, as well.

[kams]

Perhaps the movie couldn't take another character arc in it. We don't meet Denethor until well into his decent. And he just keeps going down.

What we know of him before meeting him comes from Boromir in FOTR
"My father is a noble man, but Izual is failing, and the people lose faith. My father looks to me to set it right, and I would do it, I would see the glory of Gondor restored. "

We know Gondor is much less than it was. We know the father wants the son to fix it, but when we meet Denethor, he knows his son is dead. For Denethor, hope is lost. Therefore, I didn't see what Gandalf did as a lie,

However, I am not a lawyer.






*******************
As for the beacons in the clouds, are you trying to assert realism into the movie?? Maybe in Middle Earth people live and prosper at 12,000 feet. Beacon-watchers might get time-and-a-half for cloudy days.

If we are to speak of realism, then I ask you why Gollum sinks into lava 2.5 times as dense as he is whereas a gold ring floats on the surface when it is 7000 times as dense.

Density of
gold = 19,300 kg/m3
lava = 2500 kg/m3
hobbit = 1000 kg/m3


I am, however, a physicist.

[solicitr]

Because the Ring is actually made of the gold isotope orodruinium

But seriously, folks...

It is pervasive throughout the films tht PJ has the 'good' characters act in a manner that is both immoral (or unethical), and directly the opposite from their actions in the book scene. Notoriously there is the beheading of the Mouth of Sauron, but there's also

The dialog turned upside-down so that Aragorn *advocates* ambushing the old man in Fangorn

Faramir's men doing a Rodney King on Gollum

Gandalf's preventing Saruman's killing only "because we need information"

Théoden waffling over honoring his duty under the Oath of Eorl

AGL beating down Meduseld's security detail in what looks remarkably like a palace coup

Entmoot- a decision changed from courage to faineance, to be restored only by Pippin's trickery. A twofer.

Almost everything to do with Elrond and Arwen's mutual manipulation

While Tolkien does give us several examples of persons violating orders for what is advanced as good cause: Éomer letting AGL go, Faramir letting FSG go, Éowyn/Dernhelm, Hama at the doors... in none of these cases is the act inherently wrong, merely disobedient.

[vison]

Because the Ring is actually made of the gold isotope orodruinium

Bingo!