Tomb of Jesus Discovered?

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WampusCat
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Post by WampusCat »

Wonderful posts, Kushana.

I've talked with several people about this. Most were convinced that this was hype, but were horrified (or in a couple of cases, delighted) that if true, the discovery would undermine Christianity.

But one friend, a quite devout Christian, excitedly expressed her hope that it really was the tomb of Jesus. Why? "I'd like to see those bones!" It didn't matter to her at all if the human man whom she encounters as the Living Christ left his bones behind. :D
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Post by Kushana »

Dear WampusCat,

That is an interesting response. :) Given Christianity's history of reliquaries and pilgrimages, not quite so strange (and many religions have ways of making the holy and the past tangible.)

I have been mulling over religions with falsifiable premises (all of them have some, anything supernatural can be shown in an overly cold light.) My favorite is Manichaeism (it's already dead, but not from that.) In a sense it does not matter, those who adhere, adhere.

But Manichaeism wove state-of-the-art biology and astronomy (circa 300 CE) into its founding scriptures and central doctrines, there are signs that it hung onto them literally and inflexably, over the course of twelve centuries. It just missed the Renaissance -- what would it have done with new knowledge? Would it have snapped? Gone reactionary? Shrunk? Proclaimed a new revelation that updated its scientific basis? Ignored those formerly-central parts of its scriptures and doctrines?

All religions have some flexiability, but Manichaeism had a fundamentalist streak and a structure that shut off the kinds of adaptation that other religions use ... (no new revelations, no adding to scriptures, no making the scriptures or doctines into metaphors or allegories, no deviation from the meanings given by the religion's founder.) Many religions say they preserve the original, pure, holy, revered, untainted scriptures, practices, rites and doctrines (or teachings) of their founders or early adherents ... yet Manichaeism simply didn't use these adaptive techniques. What would they have done if it could be shown that a central part of their religion was flatly untrue? (There is no doubt that their founder wrote their central scriptures and that he was the source of the entire religion.)

What if a central premise of any of the world's large tradition could be shown as simply not so, in a way that there was no working around or arguing about? What if there was no long any reason to be an X? What if the architecture, liturgy, art, music, dance, social mores, dress, holidays, fasts, and dishes associated with X tradition no longer had any basis?

(I'd feel sorry, I like spiritual biodiversity.)

It would certainly cut down on converts... but I think people would continue to be Taoists or Buddhists or Hindus or Zoroastrians -- although perhaps they would shift to being a self improvement program or an approach-to-life seminar or a cultural and historical organization.

What do you think? A major tradition -- perhaps not yours, but your friends' or neighbors' or part of you family's or a place you wanted to visit's -- just *poof* (in a way that no one who reads the news could argue against.)

I don't mean this in a let's-rejoyce-in-the-demise-of-any-particular-religion way, I mean it as a bit of sociological SF.

Yours,
Kushana (accustomed to uncomfortable ideas)

Note: Manichaeism died of persecution. (Of all things, we have a letter from one of the last Manicheans in China, fascinating and eerie reading. You can read it in Manichaeism in Central Asia and China by Samuel N. C. Lieu.)
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Fascinating, as always. :)
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Post by Primula Baggins »

I'd speculate that if the resurrection of Jesus in Christianity (the faith I know) were proven absolutely to be untrue, not a whole lot would change and in a few hundred years the disproof might even be largely forgotten.

Some Christians already dismiss widely accepted knowledge about the world because it conflicts with a literal reading of the Bible. This would be no different for them.

At the other end of the spectrum, other Christians don't believe in the resurrection, so this would make no difference to them, either.

In the middle, I am sure some people would be discouraged and leave; others would say, well, perhaps we never really understood what this story was trying to tell us, and revise their faith without losing it; others would say, well, being part of this church has been very, very good for me, and there is no reason we can't all continue to work and worship together.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Post by Griffon64 »

Kushana - why, thank you! :D
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Post by WampusCat »

In a way, the Christian church has already undergone this sort of experience. The earliest Christians expected Christ to return and the world to end in their lifetime. It took a major -- and I'm sure, uncomfortable -- shift in their understanding to continue in spite of this disappointment.

I think you are right, Kushana, that most religions would continue, albeit with a different emphasis. As long as people thirst for meaning, some sort of religion will survive. And as long as people are lazy, they will go to the source of meaning with which they are most familiar or comfortable. Truth matters a great deal to some people, but others simply want to be told the answers and to be in the presence of those who do believe.
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Post by Jnyusa »

Prim wrote:I'd speculate that if the resurrection of Jesus in Christianity (the faith I know) were proven absolutely to be untrue, not a whole lot would change and in a few hundred years the disproof might even be largely forgotten.

Some Christians already dismiss widely accepted knowledge about the world because it conflicts with a literal reading of the Bible. This would be no different for them.
They would say that God planted those bones to test their faith ... like the dinosaur fossils. :P

But in actuality I don't think there's the slightest chance that those bones belong to the person of Jesus.
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Post by Primula Baggins »

I don't, either. Really, any significant degree of uncertainty is enough, in my view, to decide that we should not set aside the foundation of one of the world's great religions (I would say the same for any of them) . . . but I don't think this find is a threat on any level.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Post by Kushana »

A good recent article by Dr. Magness:

http://bib-arch.org/bswbKCtombmagness.html

Yours,
Kushana
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Primula Baggins
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Post by Primula Baggins »

Thank you, Kushana. That was extremely interesting.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Post by axordil »

The bit about the Macabees annexing Galilee was an eye-opener. :shock: Thanks!
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Post by baby tuckoo »

Kushana wrote:Kushana (accustomed to uncomfortable ideas)

Uncomfortable??? Moi??


Philosophically, I've always embraced the Manichean idea that God encompasses the light and the dark sides. That's the part Christianity couldn't accept after Jesus became Savior and God became all light. It made the creation of evil Satan necessary.


But I only embrace these ideas philosophically, for no beings embody either side, except mythically.
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Post by Frelga »

Very interesting article. Could I please ask a couple of earnest but very naive questions? :oops:

First - I understand the Gospel describes Jesus rising from his tomb on the third day, in his physical body. So according to Christian doctrine (is that the right word?) his body would not be in the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea. Did Jesus then ascend to Heaven, still in his physical body?

Second - that bit in the article about Jesus's being a non-Judean family. Does this mean they were not Jewish? Perhaps converted to Judaism a couple generation back? I thought Jesus was believed to be the descendant of King David?
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Post by Jnyusa »

Very interesting, Kushana. Thanks for that link!

I think the bit about the Hasmoneans might be a bit misleading, though ... Galilea was settled by tribes of Jacob, and it was part of Solomon's kingdom. What happened was that during the Babylonian exile many inhabitants were carried away, and during Greek rule there was a diaspora of Jews into surrounding regions and a corresponding influx of non-Jews from the North. At the time of the Maccabeean revolt, the Seleucid Empire was collapsing into competing satraps and the Maccabees took advantage of this to reunite parts of the Kingdom of Solomon.

I've always viewed the Maccabees as the Jewish Ku Klux Klan, but there's no reason to assume that Jesus' ancestors were among those who were forcibly converted during the Hasmonean dynasty. Galilea was continuously inhabited by Jews, as far as I know, all the way back to its settlement by Manesseh. There could have been descendents of David living there during the Roman occupation. Whether this lineage is accurate for Jesus in particular though is a different question, as the family trees given in the two gospel accounts are different from one another.

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Post by axordil »

So how does Samaria tie into that? Now I'm curious.
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Post by Jnyusa »

Samaria was adjacent to Judea, iirc. There were several branches of Judaism at that time, as there are today. The Samarians were one, looked down upon by the Judeans as not quite kosher, according to my understanding.

The largest branch was Pharasaic Judaism, of which Jesus was purported to be a member. That is the one that ultimately survived to become the Talmudic Judaism of the Middle Ages.

My grasp of all those ancient events in Judaism is spotty. Perhaps someone with a more thorough picture can correct any mistakes in what I've said and fill in more blanks.

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Post by Primula Baggins »

Are the Samarians the Samaritans? The Samaritans definitely come in for a bit of disdain in the gospels. There was the Samaritan woman Jesus talked to (!!) at the well, the one who'd had five husbands and the one she had at the moment was not her own. They were not quite quite the thing.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Post by Jnyusa »

Yes, the same.

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Post by Cerin »

Prim wrote:I'd speculate that if the resurrection of Jesus in Christianity (the faith I know) were proven absolutely to be untrue, not a whole lot would change and in a few hundred years the disproof might even be largely forgotten.

Some Christians already dismiss widely accepted knowledge about the world because it conflicts with a literal reading of the Bible. This would be no different for them.

At the other end of the spectrum, other Christians don't believe in the resurrection, so this would make no difference to them, either.

In the middle, I am sure some people would be discouraged and leave; others would say, well, perhaps we never really understood what this story was trying to tell us, and revise their faith without losing it; others would say, well, being part of this church has been very, very good for me, and there is no reason we can't all continue to work and worship together.

I just wanted to offer the biblical (New Testament) perspective on the importance of the resurrection:

I Cor. 15: 14-19 wrote:And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.

Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up -- if in fact the dead do not rise.

For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.

And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!

Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.
I agree that the type of Christian who picks and chooses truths from the Bible, or those who already don't accept some of the fundamental tenets of the faith relating to the person of Jesus would not be bothered, would probably even be encouraged by persuasive evidence that the resurrection did not take place.
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Primula Baggins
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Post by Primula Baggins »

I do see the resurrection as essential, Cerin. I was just pointing out the range of belief within the church itself (because I think there is a real tendency for people outside our church, at least in the United States, to set "Christian" absolutely equal to "politically conservative Biblical inerrantist," which actually describes a minority).
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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