Chanukkah

For discussion of philosophy, religion, spirituality, or any topic that posters wish to approach from a spiritual or religious perspective.
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vison
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Post by vison »

Latkes? You need only ask once. :D

Peel 3 or 4 or 5 nice big mealy potatoes, like Russets. Grate them quite finely into cold water. Put a tea towel in a colander and pour the potato/water combo in, then press the water out, ending by wringing the potatoes in the towel.

Put the potatoes in a bowl, and add some grated or finely chopped onion, like one large onion, 2 eggs, and maybe a half cup of flour or more, salt and pepper. You can use Matzoh meal instead of flour, I hear, although I never have.

Then, heat a frying pan up and put oil or butter in. I don't know what the Jewish rules are here, I do things the irreligious way! :) Put quite a bit in, not just a dab, not just enough to make the pan shiny. Let it get quite hot, but not yet smoking. I actually use butter and oil both, the oil raises the smoking point.

Drop three or four NO MORE gobs of potato mixture in, each gob about 3/4 cup, no more. Flatten gently, but not so much that the patty disintegrates. It should be about a half inch thick. Fry until lovely and golden, then turn and fry the other side. This takes at least 5 minutes, so you really have to watch that nothing scorches. Don't put more than 4 pancakes in, if they are crowded they won't brown properly, they'll just get soggy.

I like them with a bit of sour cream, some like them with apple sauce. They are marvellous with ham or smokies, or corned beef.

My German neighbour used to make them with potatoes that were pureed, not grated, but I didn't like hers at all.
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truehobbit
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Post by truehobbit »

Oooh, recipes - thanks!

Yep, that's Reibekuchen! :D
Only, we don't grate them into water (not sure what's meant to achieve?), and we don't use particularly mealy kinds, we just take what's there.
So, yes, grate the raw potatoes (ick! at the idea of pureed ones), add onion, salt, pepper, nutmeg - and then we add oatflakes to bind the liquid from the potatoes. Then an egg or two, and, yes, you'll need about a centimeter of oil in the pan (otherwise it's not frying in the first place! :P ) - sunflower oil, like Frelga said! :D

Traditionally it's eaten with apple sauce and bread (or, for kids, with sugar). It's a very typical dish for poor people around here and used to have an accordingly "low" reputation. (You also get them as a kind of fast food, in fry-shops - but they aren't so good there, of course.) So it was a bit of a revolution when restaurants started serving them with salmon - which is delicious. :D
(I think it's the combination Jewel and I had in the restaurant here.)
And, like Frelga said, you can experiment: I like grating veggies in (kohlrabi (aka "turnip cabbage") or carrots, and I think I'll try courgettes and parsnips some time) , it changes the taste quite a lot, makes it more refreshing.

I'm hungry now! :D
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Post by Frelga »

Oatflakes! Why, TH, that's brilliant!

Vison, you and your irreligious ways! :hug: I think oil is more appropriate for frying Hanukah latkes, just because of the "miracle of oil part". I don't think butter is a concern, though, especially if the latkes are served with ham. :rofl:
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Post by JewelSong »

Many people don't realize that the reason latkes are traditional during Hanukkah isn't because of the 'taters but because of the oil!

There were no potatoes in the time of the Maccabees. ;)

That's why its funny to see pre-made, frozen latkes that you bake!

ETA:, Yes, Hobby, we had latkes (or Reibekuchen!) and delicious cold smoked salmon with wonderful applesauce. And then I had some beef thing that I couldn't finish. And several glasses of wine, if I recall! :D What a fun time!
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Post by IE »

Thank you Vison. I can't wait to try out that recipe with my children.
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Post by JewelSong »

I am baking this weekend (the only time of year I bake - it seems somehow "fitting") and I may drag out my mini-food processor and make some latkes.

Sunflower oil, you say?
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Post by Rowanberry »

I'll have to try Vison's recipe for latkes sometime too - they sound good, and not too difficult to make. 8)
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

I thought I'd bump this now that Chanukah has actually arrived.
Frelga wrote:Today? :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

* recovers from a mild heart attack *

Hanukah starts on December 25th this year. The Chanukkah bazaar at my synagogue is not even until Sunday.

All right, I can breathe again. Hobby, you do not know you danger, asking these questions where Frelga roams. :D Although I don't deserve Jn's compliments, I do Google quite well.

From Aish.com
Hanuka dates back nearly 22 centuries, to the successful Jewish revolt against Antiochus IV, one of the line of Syrian-Greek monarchs who ruled the northern branch of Alexander the Great's collapsed empire. Alexander had been respectful of the Jews' monotheistic religion, but Antiochus was determined to impose Hellenism, with its pagan gods and its cult of the body, throughout his domains. When he met resistance in Judea, he made Judaism illegal.

Sabbath observance, circumcision, and the study of Torah were banned on pain of death. A statue of Zeus was installed in the Temple in Jerusalem, and swine were sacrificed before it. Some Jews embraced the new order and willingly abandoned the God and faith of their ancestors. Those who wouldn't were cruelly punished. [...]

The fight to reclaim Jewish religious autonomy began in 167 BC. In the town of Modi'in, an elderly priest named Mattathias refused a Syrian order to sacrifice to an idol. When an apostate Jew stepped forward to comply, Mattathias killed the man and tore down the altar. Then he and his five sons took to the hills and launched a guerrilla war against the armies of the empire.

When Mattathias died, his third son, Judah Maccabee, took command. He and his band of fighters were impossibly outnumbered, yet they won one miraculous victory after another. In 164 BC, they recaptured the Temple, which they cleansed and purified and rededicated to God. On the 25th day of the Jewish month of Kislev, the menorah -- the candelabra symbolizing the divine presence -- was rekindled. For eight days, throngs of Jews celebrated the Temple's restoration. "All the people prostrated themselves," records the book of Maccabees, "worshipping and praising Heaven that their cause had prospered."
Tradition maintains that as the Temple was re-dedicated, there was only enough purified oil to burn for a day, while it took eight days to press and prepare more oil. In an act of faith, they lit the menorah anyway, and it burned miraculously for eight days until more oil was prepared. Hence the tradition of eating foods fried in oil, and of lighting candles for eight days of the celebration.

As far as I can tell, it is pretty much by chance that Chanukah falls in winter. If chance you call it. It's not always Midwinter, due, as TH supposed, to the vagaries of the lunar/solar calendar, and can begin as early as Thanksgiving.

Is there more? Oh yes, there's plenty more to say, but you don't want to encourage me with undue patience. :D
Still waiting with undue patience. :)

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vison
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Post by vison »

Frelga wrote:Oatflakes! Why, TH, that's brilliant!

Vison, you and your irreligious ways! :hug: I think oil is more appropriate for frying Hanukah latkes, just because of the "miracle of oil part". I don't think butter is a concern, though, especially if the latkes are served with ham. :rofl:
Yes, I sorta thought the ham bit would reveal my non-Jewishness! :D Still, they're good with anything, actually. They are not "lite" food, that's for sure, no matter how they're fried. Delicious, delicious little things.

As for the grating them into cold water, etc., it's so that when you fry them they are crisp as crisp, not starchy. You can certainly just grate them without doing that step and I've done it. (Some people, and this just BAFFLES me no end, some people go through the cold water and the wringing in the towel, etc., then they very carefully pour the water away while retaining the potato starch in the bottom of the pan, and then THEY ADD IT BACK TO THE POTATOES. Now, tell me, why did they take it out in the first place? :scratch: This is about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Pretty much.)
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Post by Frelga »

Well, it's gone now. As usual, I ran out of candles mid-holiday. Except this year, I could not find Hanukah candles in any mainstream store. None. Wrapping paper with dreidels - yes. Candles - no. I ended up using cake candles. :D

We were in Hawaii for the first couple nights. My naive husband expressed the hope of buying a small menorah locally, perhaps one with a tropical theme. Nope. Nothing in the hotel where we stayed or in any shopping center we visited gave any suggestion that there are may perhaps be some Jewish tourists on the island.

Was I surprised? Not me. I came prepared with two cans of Play-dough, out of which DS and DH constructed a simple menora, which we lit on our balcony so as not to trigger the fire alarm. We ordered room service, using tempura in lieu of latkes (Shrimp tempura. Which is no more kosher than Vison's ham. :oops: )

I told DS the story of Hanukah, with a bit more gore this year but still very gently - he is a sensitive boy. I asked him, did he think it was worth it to fight for the right to keep one's religion. Didn't get an answer.

Is it?
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truehobbit
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Post by truehobbit »

Very good and very hard question, Frelga! :)

The short answer I'd say is no - you should be steadfast to your religion and let yourself be killed if someone makes you choose to give up your religion or be killed, but you should not actively fight and kill people no matter what.

Whether that's a practicable thing IRL is a different question, though.
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Post by JewelSong »

truehobbit wrote:The short answer I'd say is no - you should be steadfast to your religion and let yourself be killed if someone makes you choose to give up your religion or be killed, but you should not actively fight and kill people no matter what.
Really? You should never actively fight, no matter what? :shock:

In the Chanukah story, the Assyrians had completely decimated the village. Destroyed the temple, raped the women, pillaged the town, murdered the children. They forced the townspeople to bow down and worship their king and they poured pig's blood on the altar and defiled the Torah.

Judah and his Maccabees hid and trained for 2 years before they came down from the hills and drove them out.

Now, what you seem to be saying is that, ideally, they should not have fought back, but submitted. Allowed their women to be raped and their children to be killed and allowed their temple to be defiled...and allowed themselves to be wiped out.

Most times, when someone is "making you give up your religion" it isn't simply a matter of saying, "Oh, okay, I won't pray to my God anymore." Usually there is plenty of violence involved...it's all about power, really, not about religion.

I think there are times when you need to actively fight.
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truehobbit
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Post by truehobbit »

That's why I said it's probably not practicable in real life! ;)

I agree that in such a situation the only sensible thing would be to fight back. It doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to let yourselves be wiped out, because if you are convinced your own way of life is good, you'd want that to survive.

But it would still be wrong - in a purely moral sense.

I agree you sometimes need to fight - but I also think it's morally wrong to do so.
If the fight is necessary and useful for other innocent victims, for example, I'd say that the person who fights is to be thanked for taking a great guilt upon himself for the good of others.
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Post by JewelSong »

Well, we will have to agree to disagree then. I think there are times when it is your moral duty and obligation to fight.

If someone was hurting one of my children, for instance, I think it would be morally wrong for me not to do everything in my power to prevent it - up to and including killing the person. And I wouldn't feel guilty in the least.

To stand by and do nothing, to me, would be a terrible lapse in morality.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Yes, I agree.
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truehobbit
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Post by truehobbit »

I think you didn't quite get me right: I didn't say you'd be wrong to fight or that you should stand by and do nothing! - Far from it! Standing by and doing nothing is certainly wrong. And I said you sometimes have to even fight violently. I just said that doesn't make it right.

Yes, you'd be in a predicament then.
You could not let them hurt your kid, because that would be wrong and you'd be guilty of allowing an innocent to be hurt, but if you killed them you'd be guilty of murder, no matter how right you were to have done it.

And of course I'd do the same for self-defense and defense of people I want to protect.

I'm just convinced that it's wrong to twist the absolute command of God for non-violence to fit our convenience.
I don't know the Gospel all that well, but it doesn't say "don't raise the sword and turn the other cheek unless the other guy is killer in which case you are allowed to kill him, too" or "love your enemy except when he's really dangerous". It says, AFAIK, never ever answer violence with violence, full stop.
So, I perfectly understand the need for self-defense, and I personally totally condone it! I just think it's a sin in spite of all that.

Btw, I think that's the reason Frodo never kills anyone - if he did so he'd be lost, at least in my view.
but being a cheerful hobbit he had not needed hope, as long as despair could be postponed.
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Post by JewelSong »

truehobbit wrote: I don't know the Gospel all that well, but it doesn't say "don't raise the sword and turn the other cheek unless the other guy is killer in which case you are allowed to kill him, too" or "love your enemy except when he's really dangerous". It says, AFAIK, never ever answer violence with violence, full stop.
Well, this could make a very interesting theological discussion...and maybe I will start a thread on it, after I have done a bit of research.

However...back to the Chanukah story! The Gospel's edict against any kind of violence and "love thine enemy" was several hundred years after the story of Chanukah happened...and so the Maccabees were operating under a different set of rules, if you will. The Commandment often cited as "Thou shalt not kill" is really better translated as "Thou shalt not murder." The Torah (I believe) allows for killing when it is deemed justifed...murder is a different matter altogether. I do not believe "killing" and "murder" are synonymous.

(And no matter what the Gospel may say, I refuse to believe it is a "sin" for a mother to defend her children....but like I said, I'll save it for another thread! ;) )
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Post by truehobbit »

The Gospel's edict against any kind of violence and "love thine enemy" was several hundred years after the story of Chanukah happened...
But Frelga asked a general question. I wasn't talking about the Maccabees, but whether, from my POV, fighting is acceptable. Of course, for anyone operating under a different set of rules, you'll get a different take on the question. :)

And I think it's quite possible for something to be right and still be a sin. ;)
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Post by JewelSong »

truehobbit wrote: And I think it's quite possible for something to be right and still be a sin. ;)
That seems to me to be a total contradiction in terms.

But it needs its own thread! Start one! Call it "SIN!" :D
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Post by truehobbit »

I thought you wanted to start one! Let me know if you don't anymore, then I might! :D

(Though I'm not all that sure I'm ready to delve into a discussion like that with nobody agreeing with me! :P ;) )
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