"Inclusive language" and gender in religion

[Primula Baggins]

It just sounds . . . wrong to me. I spend a lot of my working life correcting subject-verb agreement errors, so I'm permanently attuned to them. Committing them, even though there are arguments for it—it would be like singing out of tune on purpose.

[truehobbit]

Alternating "he" and "she" is a good choice, I think.

Oooh, no, I really hate that! This is the one has me feeling excluded!
It's annoying because the first thing I do, when I notice alternation, is that I start looking who gets what and why... is it the "he" or the "she" that gets the nasty or silly things...? And it's exclusive because it seems to ascribe some things to one gender and others to another.
For example, I found that usage in some official text recently, and you had things like: if a person wishes to do this she has to..., if someone intends to do that he has to... and I just wondered why I should want this but not that...

but we must never forget that the German word for "girl," Mädchen, is neutral.

I thought neutrality was a good thing?

It's not just the girl but also the wife/woman (not entirely clear about the marital status of "Weib", I must admit).

But I must say that although I don't mind the word being of neutral gender grammatically - (in fact, I think that grammatical gender is meaningless and to complain about the grammatical gender of words shows a similarly ridiculous lack of understanding as the infamous complaint about "history" and request to use "herstory") - it has always bothered me a bit that it's widespread usage in dialectal German to talk about women in the neutral gender (e.g. "das Prim hat mir gesagt...")

[axordil]

Prim--

It's only a s/v disagreement if usage defines it as such. If the rule becomes "in addition to their usage in the plural, they and them can be used as the pronouns for a person or persons of uncertain gender", which is how it was in Chaucer's time, for me it's just going back to our roots.

[Primula Baggins]

Yeah, Ax, but if I agreed with you I couldn't complain, could I?

hobby, I wasn't serious about the barricades. Noun gender in languages that have it often makes no sense at all and is certainly not a tool of oppression.

Though I'd forgotten about "Weib"!

"Das Prim hat mir gesagt" is an idiom I never learned. But you'd go on and say, "Ist sie nicht ein Dummkopf?" rather than "Ist es," right?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

For some reason, "Das Prim" made me go

[Primula Baggins]

[truehobbit]

hobby, I wasn't serious about the barricades. Noun gender in languages that have it often makes no sense at all and is certainly not a tool of oppression.

I know you weren't.
But this is what this alternation does, isn't it?
When you say "he" generically, meaning both men and women, I don't mind because I know that this is just grammatical usage. If you start alternating between "he" and "she" you are making it clear that for you it's not just grammar, but that you are making a difference between men and women here. So, that's when I start feeling excluded in the instances that say "he" - because by alternating you create a contrast to those where you use "she", and make it impossible for me to feel included in the generic "he".

"Das Prim hat mir gesagt" is an idiom I never learned. But you'd go on and say, "Ist sie nicht ein Dummkopf?" rather than "Ist es," right?

You wouldn't learn that usage in German lessons, cos you just learn to speak posh there. Us folks in them there streets speak a language what's different.
Putting an article in front of a name isn't properly grammatical anyway, I think, but everybody does it. Also, use of pronouns in dialects is hardly ever what the standard grammar says. And in some regions women are always neutral, so people would indeed say "Es ist ein Dummkopf!" or "Ist das nicht ein Dummkopf?" (Yes, the article replacing the pronoun.)
(I don't know why, but I would only say "Es" in the statement, not in the question.)
You'd also use "es" for further reference to the woman, e.g. for "Prim told me she'd met Bush yesterday": Das Prim hat mir gesagt, es wär' gestern dem Bush begegnet. (Instead of: Prim hat mir gesagt, sie sei gestern Bush begegnet.)

[Primula Baggins]

hobby, my high school German teacher told us how lucky we were that he came from Mannheim and therefore, he said, had the "perfect" German accent. He dressed and carried himself quite aristocratically, so I'm sure we learned a very plummy German!

The alternating pronouns thing—when I've used it, it's been in isolated instances, and I keep it the same for at least a paragraph or as long as the specific subject is being discussed. Once I've talked about "her," "he" may not come up for a couple of chapters. Rigidly alternating sentence by sentence would be distracting and confusing for the reasons you mention!

But, in my experience there are usually ways to rephrase things to achieve gender neutrality without awkwardness and without using nonstandard grammar.

It's just that in some contexts, such as church liturgies and hymns, any change at all is going to bother at least some people, and I can sympathize. In a ruthless "but it's good for you" kind of way.

[truehobbit]

my high school German teacher told us how lucky we were that he came from Mannheim

From Mannem? You should have a kind of palatinate-accent, then! (Rheinfränkisch/Pfälzisch).

Of course, I trust that you teacher knew his standard German well enough.
But he must have been pulling your leg. Hardly anyone from so far south grows up with standard German. There seems to be a boundary not much south of Cologne, from where on children grow up with dialect as a matter of course, while further north it tends to be more often an acquired than a native language, and children grow up with a dialect accent at the most.
Hannover is reputed to be the closest to standard German in its native speech. (I don't know, I've never been there.)

If he taught you Mannemerisch, I would understand you, though, because it's not dissimilar from what my family speaks. And I'm pretty sure you'd refer to a woman friend as "it". (E.g.: Das Anthy is e ganz liebes! )

[MithLuin]

I decided to use they/them for indeterminate singular on my own when I was in high school...the same way I determined that I will never put the zero before the decimal point because it is just silly. (My deliberate choice was in rebellion against the unwieldy [and equally silly] him/her, he/she constructions that were being foisted on us as "proper.")

Now that I am a teacher, I have to be careful not to use "my" quirks too often, since it might confuse the students. I have to be a good example and all .

But teaching at an all girls school makes the singular "their" a moot point - I can say "who would like to put her answer on the board?" and be right . I consider this a perk to my job. I am very pathetic and sad

I always thought it funny that everything in French and Spanish was masculine or feminine, seemingly arbitrarily. From what I heard in high school, German had neuter as well, but it was just as arbitrary. Is there any meaning at all to the gender of random words like "paper?" Or is it just random grammar stuff.....

[Parmamaite]

Danish on the other hand has "common gender" and "neuter". That is, masculinum and femininum is combined in one grammatical gender.

BTW in Swedish "människa" meaning "human being" or "mensch" is femininum, and can be refered to as she (or rather "hon"). In danish "menneske" is neuter.

Language is a source of endless entertainment

[yovargas]

Or frustration!

[Rowanberry]

In Finnish, we've got it still easier, because we only have one gender neutral personal pronoun for human beings. Also, the words meaning "human male" and "human" are different so, nothing to complain there either. (In addition, I read recently that the word for "human" originally meant "woman"! )

In the Lutheran church, God is regarded as a father figure and therefore basically male, but with several of feminine characteristics; and, some people see the Holy Spirit as a female element. (At least I think this is the situation - but, it's almost twenty years since I abandoned organised religion, and I was never an avid churchgoer anyway.)

(And, I don't understand changing the lyrics of Amazing Grace either. )

[WampusCat]

I remember the first time I was in a church that sang "Amazing grace, how sweet the sound that saved and set me free..." I nearly shouted out, "Hey, sometimes I feel like a wretch, like maybe right now, and I need to be reminded that Grace makes a difference, OK???"

Hymns shouldn't be messed with. Their words and cadence sink into the singer in such a way that it's a major wrench (but not wretch) to hear changes. Write new hymns that expand the traditional images and language -- I have! -- but leave the traditional ones as is. Especially Christmas carols. Hands off "God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen" and "Good Christian Men Rejoice"!

As for inclusive language in worship services and scripture, I've been on both sides. Growing up I had absolutely no problem with the all-male wording. Perhaps that had something to do with identifying more with my brothers than with those silly creatures who dressed in pink.

It began mattering more for me as I grew older (and more comfortable with my own gender). By the time I joined the Episcopal church in my mid-20s, inclusive language was partially used. Over time, I became more and more aware of when it wasn't used. The male references stuck out, and grated a bit.

I also became more aware of how off-putting exclusively male language in worship and scripture was to women who had had abusive relationships with their fathers or other men. So I think it's particularly important for inclusive language to be used in services. Although the Bible I prefer to read is not particuarly inclusive (RSV), I'm glad we use the more inclusive version (NRSV) for the readings in church.

[axordil]

I find it telling that for me, changing the liturgy to be gender-inclusive doesn't bug me, but changing the songs does. Alternate versions of hymns I think are all right, so long as the originals remain...let individual congregations decide which they want to use.

Of course, the idea of being told by a human authority what I should be singing in general pisses me off, but that's me.

[Frelga]

I also became more aware of how off-putting exclusively male language in worship and scripture was to women who had had abusive relationships with their fathers or other men. So I think it's particularly important for inclusive language to be used in services. Although the Bible I prefer to read is not particuarly inclusive (RSV), I'm glad we use the more inclusive version (NRSV) for the readings in church.

I've never considered this point. Indeed, for many women, an image of God as Father is not at all comforting.

I'm with Ax on changing liturgy but not the songs. One year I ended up at a Yom Kippur service where my favorite prayer, Avinu Malkeinu (our Father, our king) where every line begins with those two words was changed to start every other line with Imeinu Malkoteinu (our mother, our queen) and it just grated. Actually, I would prefer the version of Imeinu Malkeinu (our mother, our King) because it emphasizes the theme of the God as a caring and forgiving parent (traditional maternal attributes) as well as a just Sovereign (more sever traditionally male attribute).

Of course, the idea of being told by a human authority what I should be singing in general pisses me off, but that's me.

Ax, what other authority is there but human? Even the Psalms are attributed to King David, who was human. Very human, in fact.

More later...

[axordil]

Frelga--
That's one reason I don't play well with most religions. Even my own. If there is always human authority, why is it any better than I am at deciding things, whether that's choosing a pronoun or devising a creed? It goes back to Wm. Blake for me--I must make my own religion or be enslaved by another's.

YMMV.

[Aravar]

(Much worse, IMO, than the much quoted opposite example of German not having a word for "fluffy". )

Sorry to intrude into a seroius discussion, but your operas do last for three days; and you still haven't provided a synonym for the 'f-word'.

[truehobbit]

Actually, there is a word for "fluffy" - it's "flauschig" - it's just a slightly different concept from "fluffy". A towel, for example, or a plush teddy can be fluffy and they can be flauschig. But a pudding can be fluffy, too, and it couldn't be flauschig. 'Flauschig' desribes a texture, while fluffy describes a condition (filled with air, or so).

And with three days our operas still don't last as long as a single cricket match!



Back to Wampus and Amazing Grace - why would they get rid of "wretch"? That's gender neutral, isn't it?

[Parmamaite]

Forgive my ignorance, but now the new "wrong" lyrics of Amazing Grace has been posted a couple of times, so I'm curious: what's the original opening lines?