Female religious leaders

[Primula Baggins]

Well, Lutherans don't do a lot of stake-burning either, but my older son was (is) a questioner and a theorizer and arrived by his own process of thought at several major heresies (we don't talk about heresy much these days either, but that is the theological term). Our pastor, who is the confirmation teacher and has a dry, dry, dry sense of humor, had a great deal of fun with him, sending him off to read up on this or that early church controversy.

Yes, Cranmer was a bit of a wishful thinker there . . . Luther's expectations were a bit more realistic; he knew he was leaving the Church. And burned his bridges rather spectacularly.

[solicitr]

Mary Magdalene was one of the first called by Christ to spread the news of his resurrection, a.k.a. to preach (albeit to the apostles) the good news. Again, this is a pretty priestly activity.

Not really- not in the Catholic sense. An RC priest is not just a minister or preacher - laypeople, male and female, can do those things - but a priest- his role is sacramental.

[Primula Baggins]

In the Lutheran church we have only two sacraments, communion and baptism—the rule being that they must have been instituted by Jesus, have a visible element, and be a means of grace. Ordination is thus not one of them. Perhaps that has left us able to extend it to women, partly because of the example of the women who followed Jesus.

[MithLuin]

Modern? St. John of the Cross was writing 400 years ago. Not exactly post-enlightenment there! The Dark Night This is in translation from the Spanish, so it may have lost a little of the poetry, but not the gender . St. Bernard of Clairveaux, the mellifluous doctor, wrote reams and reams on the meaning of the Song of Songs, and it mostly boils down to - God is the Lover, the Soul is the Beloved. This was 900 years ago. A sample

I do not think it is an unusual interpretation of Christian thought to say that the spritual relationship between the soul and God prefigured the relationship between spouses, so that marriage is a sign of God's love. God knew what spiritual love was before he created all of us and invented sex, in other words . (Though I realize that using words like 'before' when talking about God is inaccurate; sorry.)

It is true that tons and tons have been said on this topic by John Paul II, and he is certainly modern. But he was building on a tradition that was in place for quite some time, and seeking to interpret the scriptures - he didn't create new ideas for his Theology of the Body wholesale.


No, Prim, the Holy Spirit is far from silent. The Magesterium, the teaching body of the Church, interprets Scripture and Tradition in the light and guidance of the Holy Spirit. Hence, something like Vatican II. Things do change. But we are not waiting for new revelations from God - Jesus was the fullness of God's revelation to us, so it is a matter of understanding and interpretting Jesus' life, not of waiting for God to tell us brand new things that have no connection to the past. That is why, to change something like this, you would have to take nel's approach - find a scriptural basis for the authority to alter the way things are. Edit: And you are right, the different understanding of the meaning of sacraments between our churches leads to different conclusions, but I think the bigger emphasis would be on the importance of Tradition in guiding interpretation of Scripture. The Lutheran church is allowed to disregard church history if they would like, I think . So, considering both of these things, it is not surprising that our churches reached different conclusions on the question of female ordination.


Crucifer - and what if she does? She cannot, in the Catholic church, so she can either find a church that will let her, or she can find another way to serve within the Church. I don't mean to be flippant - my own sister was a child who said, "I want to be a priest" when she was a little girl. No one discouraged her or told her she was bad for wanting that. They even let her play Jesus in the Passion Play when she was in middle school. She worked as a youth minister for several years. She is now married and had her first child 3 weeks ago. She is not angry at the church for 'denying' her or anything like that.

Mary gets to be queen of heaven because she is Jesus' mother. I don't know enough about systems of royalty, but is that something like the queen-mum or whatever? My understanding is that God is Trinity because God is love, and you cannot love if you are alone. God the Father is the Creator, Jesus is the Son and the Redeemer, and the Holy Spirit is the Sanctifier. Another understanding of the Holy Spirit is that he is the relationship between the Father and the Son made manifest, but I think this idea is particularly Western, and might not be satisfying to the Orthodox. In general, I try not to explain the Trinity in too much detail, because I know I will quickly become heretical if I am not careful .

[Frelga]

In relation to God, the earliest Jews worshipped and recognised God in two forms: male and female, Jah and Shenakh (correct me if I'm wrong on the names)

Never heard of those. Not to say you are wrong, just that this is the first time I hear about the two forms. Unless by Shenakh you mean Shekhinah, the presence of God. Shekhinah just means "presence" and is grammatically feminine, just as, for instance, Tzur, Rock, is masculine, and is another title for God.

these were combined to YHWH when talking about GOD as on single entity, much as Christianity calls God the trinity of Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

Or, more precisely, nothing like the trinity. I believe that the God of Judaism is much less anthropomorphic than the Christian God, much less of a great old man if the sky. I am, of course, talking about Jewish understanding of God, not the Christian representation of the Jewish God.

The concept of Shekhinah is a highly mystical one and I don't pretend to understand it. It is seen as a feminine, although not definitely female as Mary is, immanent aspect of God. Incidentally, because Shekhinah is feminine, she is identified with the Shabbath in certain traditions, which is referred to as the queen and the bride with the Jewish people as the bridegroom.

But, again, we are talking mystical meaning, not anthropomorphic representation.

[Primula Baggins]

The Old Man in the Sky is more of a misconception by Christians than a description of Christian belief about God, which rapidly dissolves into abstraction when you get to the Trinity. One reason I believe there's truth in it is just that it's so hard to grasp—and the more theological training someone has, the more panicked they look when asked to try and explain it. It seems to me that the nature of God ought to be complicated and mysterious.

[WampusCat]

Agreed. Paradox keeps us from thinking we have it all figured out.

That's a good thing.

[axordil]

Paradox is good for job security, if you're a theologian.

[Crucifer]

Frelga, I can't remember where exactly I read it. I believe it was in passing in some history book, or I may have heard it in a sermon or something, so I'm not entirely sure as to the authenticity of it.

And that second quote, when taken with the first one, makes far more sense. It's the idea (accurate or not) of God as more than one person in a single entity.

She cannot, in the Catholic church, so she can either find a church that will let her, or she can find another way to serve within the Church.

But what if she feels an affinity with the Catholic church that she feels with no other Christian denomination? What if, for her entire life, she feels a burning desire to serve as a priest? Would Christ have denied her that? I think not.

[Frelga]

The Old Man in the Sky is more of a misconception by Christians than a description of Christian belief about God, which rapidly dissolves into abstraction when you get to the Trinity. One reason I believe there's truth in it is just that it's so hard to grasp—and the more theological training someone has, the more panicked they look when asked to try and explain it. It seems to me that the nature of God ought to be complicated and mysterious.

I agree, Prim, and I understand that Trinity is complex and mythical. Not that I pretend to understand WHAT it is!

I actually was talking about the rank-and-file idea of God. Centuries of depicting deities in human form, and the pagan influence that ancient Judaism battled so fiercely (and which did often take form of excising the Goddess), do inform a popular concept of God as a super-powerful patriarch.

And that second quote, when taken with the first one, makes far more sense. It's the idea (accurate or not) of God as more than one person in a single entity

My quibble is with the word "person." The idea of God as more complex than a single, monolythic entity is one I share. Yet the God of the Torah is THE ONE, complex beyond human understanding but not composite.

[Primula Baggins]

Frelga, you've put your finger on the real stumbler for most people (me too, most definitely) with the Trinity: three "persons," but definitely one God, not three.

Maybe it's an artifact of how creatures within spacetime would have to interact with a deity who is "outside" it, who perceives the entire universe and all eternity "simultaneously." That would be the Creator/Father.

Then there's Jesus, the Redeemer/Son, who actually became part of the universe at (at least) one particular point in space and time.

Then there's the aspect of God that intersects with all of spacetime and is the reason we can have a relationship with God at all: the Holy Spirit/Sanctifier. (Those second terms are often used to avoid "Father.")

All one being; just viewed from different places.

I'll stop waving my hands now. But I'm not surprised at all to learn that there is a similarly complex conception of God in Judaism. It only makes sense. The old guy with the beard sitting on a cloud is an easy concept to grasp, but not nearly sufficient.

[Crucifer]

Frelga, I use the word 'person' because, well, I can't think of a better word to use. More than one identity, perhaps, in entity, is what I mean.

The old guy with the beard sitting on a cloud is an easy concept to grasp, but not nearly sufficient.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I'm not going to suggest splitting off this discussion unless there clearly is broad support for doing so, but I really, really think that the subject of the nature of the Trinity and of God is deserving of its own thread.

[Frelga]

Maybe so, V, but here it occurred in the context of divine feminine as related to the discussion topic.

[Lalaith]

I was going to say the same thing as Frelga.



Lali

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Maybe so, V, but here it occurred in the context of divine feminine as related to the discussion topic.

It started there, but it certainly has gone beyond that. But I'll say no more, and keep my thoughts about the nature of God (including the divine feminine) to myself.

[Lalaith]

I'd actually like to hear your thoughts about the topic and hope you're not choosing to remain silent because of anything I said.


Lali

[MithLuin]

But what if she feels an affinity with the Catholic church that she feels with no other Christian denomination? What if, for her entire life, she feels a burning desire to serve as a priest? Would Christ have denied her that? I think not.

What is the source of this burning desire? The call to the priesthood has its source in God, as all vocations do. I do not think that God would call someone to the priesthood and then deny them that opportunity to serve.

I have 2 sisters. One has wanted to be a nun since she was young (maybe 12). She is currently 24, and visiting convents. The process of discovering what her vocation, her life's calling, is has been a long and drawn out one. Knowing that she wants to be a religious sister, and finding a community to join are two separate issues that go together. It's the difference between knowing you want to get married, someday, and knowing you want to marry this person.

My other sister wanted to be a priest when she was 5 years old. When our mother asked her if maybe she wanted to be a nun instead, she informed her in no uncertain terms that no, she wanted to be a priest, because she wanted to be the one who did communion. When she shared this dream with the priest at our parish, he was thrilled, and told her that was wonderful. But what did she do about it? She was an altar server when she was in 3rd grade. She later became a sacristan, lector and cantor (all before graduating from high school). She went to a Catholic university and got a dual degree in English and Religion. Her first job was as a youth minister, working with high school kids and forming them in their faith for 3 years. She loved it. But, she quit that job when she got married last summer. She currently works as a secretary, which pays the bills, and is on maternity leave with her new daughter. That desire, to feed the people of God, did not go away. But she found a way to do that within the Church without seeking ordination.


Life doesn't always work out the way we want it to. I know of men who really wanted to be priests, but they were turned down or rejected for various reasons. And I know of lots of people who wanted to marry someone, but were similarly rejected. That is devastating, but life goes on. Just because you think you really want something doesn't mean you can get it. I agree that a desire that persists for a long time is generally something to be taken a little more seriously. I knew a woman who broke off an engagement to marry another man. The man she jilted would call her once a year to see how she was doing...and if she was still married. I think this went on for maybe 10 years, until he died. Persistence without the possibility of resolution just eats away at people. On the other hand, I also know of a young man who was ordained on his death bed, so he became a priest, but never had the opportunity to serve while he was living.

So, I suppose I should have said that there are three options for your hypothetical woman. She can join a faith tradition that welcomes her desire to serve as an ordained minister, a priest. She can find a way to serve within the Catholic Church without seeking ordination. Or, she can remain Catholic and feel unfulfilled because there was no opportunity to do what she wanted to do. The last choice just seems very sad.

But I do not think that is a reason to change the rules. If someone decides that they have a burning desire to marry me, and they've felt this way for ages and ages, I still feel I have the right to say, "Sorry, I don't know what you're on about." If they insist that this is the will of God, and they know for certain that this is what God wants them to do, I'm not necessarily going to go for it. AFAIK, outside the US the desire for female ordination is very low.

Here is some of what the Catechism of the Catholic Church has to say about the priesthood:

Christ, high priest and unique mediator, has made of the Church "a kingdom, priests for his God and Father." The whole community of believers is, as such, priestly. the faithful exercise their baptismal priesthood through their participation, each according to his own vocation, in Christ's mission as priest, prophet, and king. Through the sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation the faithful are "consecrated to be . . . a holy priesthood."

The ministerial or hierarchical priesthood of bishops and priests, and the common priesthood of all the faithful participate, "each in its own proper way, in the one priesthood of Christ." While being "ordered one to another," they differ essentially. In what sense? While the common priesthood of the faithful is exercised by the unfolding of baptismal grace - a life of faith, hope, and charity, a life according to the Spirit - ,the ministerial priesthood is at the service of the common priesthood. It is directed at the unfolding of the baptismal grace of all Christians. the ministerial priesthood is a means by which Christ unceasingly builds up and leads his Church. For this reason it is transmitted by its own sacrament, the sacrament of Holy Orders.

In the ecclesial service of the ordained minister, it is Christ himself who is present to his Church as Head of his Body, Shepherd of his flock, high priest of the redemptive sacrifice, Teacher of Truth. This is what the Church means by saying that the priest, by virtue of the sacrament of Holy Orders, acts in persona Christi Capitis: "It is the same priest, Christ Jesus, whose sacred person his minister truly represents. Now the minister, by reason of the sacerdotal consecration which he has received, is truly made like to the high priest and possesses the authority to act in the power and place of the person of Christ himself (virtute ac persona ipsius Christi)." Christ is the source of all priesthood: the priest of the old law was a figure of Christ, and the priest of the new law acts in the person of Christ.

Through the ordained ministry, especially that of bishops and priests, the presence of Christ as head of the Church is made visible in the midst of the community of believers. In the beautiful expression of St. Ignatius of Antioch, the bishop is typos tou Patros: he is like the living image of God the Father.

This presence of Christ in the minister is not to be understood as if the latter were preserved from all human weaknesses, the spirit of domination, error, even sin. The power of the Holy Spirit does not guarantee all acts of ministers in the same way. While this guarantee extends to the sacraments, so that even the minister's sin cannot impede the fruit of grace, in many other acts the minister leaves human traces that are not always signs of fidelity to the Gospel and consequently can harm the apostolic fruitfulness of the Church.

This priesthood is ministerial. "That office . . . which the Lord committed to the pastors of his people, is in the strict sense of the term a service." It is entirely related to Christ and to men. It depends entirely on Christ and on his unique priesthood; it has been instituted for the good of men and the communion of the Church. the sacrament of Holy Orders communicates a "sacred power" which is none other than that of Christ. the exercise of this authority must therefore be measured against the model of Christ, who by love made himself the least and the servant of all. "The Lord said clearly that concern for his flock was proof of love for him."

Oh, and "Three persons, one God" is the simplest way of defining the Trinity without being threatened with stake-burning . I realize that the idea of multiple persons in one God is not easy to understand nor is it compatible with religions besides Christianity. But part of the reason it is so important to the Christian understanding of God is the idea that there are relationships within the divine, and relationships require, well...people. Not human people, but people of some sort. I am not enough of a theologian to get into the 'essence' of God or anything like that. It is very important, from a Christian perspective, that God have perfect unity - there cannot be any division, and you can't say that there are 3 Gods or anything like that.

[Crucifer]

What is the source of this burning desire?

I believe it tends to be the Holy Spirit.

I do not think that God would call someone to the priesthood and then deny them that opportunity to serve.

God doesn't deny anyone the right to serve. That denial comes from the Catholic church.

I don't believe God wrote the Catechism of the Catholic church. Forgive me if I'm wrong there.

[MithLuin]

So, basically, you're saying that the Holy Spirit calls women to the priesthood, but that the Holy Spirit hasn't informed the Church of this policy?