Critiques/Aberrations of Religion

For discussion of philosophy, religion, spirituality, or any topic that posters wish to approach from a spiritual or religious perspective.
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Primula Baggins
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Post by Primula Baggins »

Cerin wrote:We have one solution to one problem -- Jesus, the Savior of the world -- that we should put forward with a singular certainty and fervor. No offering of worldy truths or solutions should reflect that same certainty and fervor, because there is too great a likelihood that we will be wrong in some aspect of our understanding and perspective, and therefore too great a danger that we will misrepresent Christ to the world in the name of politics.
It's telling that there are Christians all along the political spectrum advancing their political views with the certainty and fervor you mention, Cerin—people on the right and the left who are certain that their agendas are pure expressions of the will of God. Yet they can't all be completely right about that.

Of course, some of the diifferences between the Christian right and the Christian left lie in the parts of Christianity they feel driven by—to protect all human life and spread the word of God, on one side, and to make peace and bring justice to the helpless on the other.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Post by Windfola »

But having as the motivation for our political actions, the belief that we represent the truth of God in promoting particular political solutions to the world's problems, is, I believe, off the mark for a Christian.
I think you've hit the nail on the head with this Cerin. But I also think it's a very fine and difficult distinction for people to make - hence the misguided anger and self-righteous judgement we so often see in our profoundly polarized nation.
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Post by Impenitent »

Primula_Baggins wrote::oops: It was all that confirmation class, you know—having the grace of God pounded into us. . . .
:rofl: :D

* Has this sacriligious vision of little kids being beaten about the head and body with large bats labelled "grace of God" *

I'm sorry...I had a Monty Python moment there...it was the way it was written, you see.
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Primula Baggins
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Post by Primula Baggins »

<thwack>

"You will accept this undeserved mercy!"

<thwack>

Actually it's not too far off some of my grandparents' stories of confirmation class, in which they had to completely memorize large chunks of the Bible and the Small Catechism—in their parents' native Norwegian, not English.

This required firmness on the part of the pastor. :D
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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narya
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Post by narya »

Here are a few articles on current Catholic thought, if you are interested:

Baptism's Biblical Roots
The Sacrament of Baptism:Celebrating the Embrace of God
Part of the beauty of Baptism is its assurance that through this sacrament we share in Christ's victory over the power of darkness in the world. Yet, the doctrine of Original Sin does not eclipse the good news that God's mercy and saving love are stronger than the power of sin—even before the baptismal waters are poured. In other words, we must be careful not to look upon unbaptized infants and adults as outside the scope of God's saving power.
Who will be Saved?
Although the Church definitely teaches the existence and eternity of hell, the Church has never taught that anyone is actually in hell. That judgment is up to God alone. When we think of salvation using the "God is a loving parent" metaphor, the number of those we imagine to be damned is drastically reduced! As the Catechism makes clear, the purpose of this language is to call us, the living, to responsibility and to respond to the love of our Heavenly Parent.
What things (actions, people, attitudes) can prevent us from responding to God's parental love for us? Jesus says that one of the things high on the list that blocks us from God is wealth (another shock to those accustomed to the accounting metaphor of salvation)! As a Franciscan, I like to think that this is the reason why St. Francis, the poor man of Assisi, could respond to the Father's love so completely: No attachment to wealth stood in the way.

When the rich young man in the Gospel asked Jesus, "What must I do to inherit eternal life?", Jesus told him to get rid of his possessions. "Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, 'How hard it is for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!' The disciples were amazed at his words. So Jesus again said to them in reply, 'Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for one who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.' They were exceedingly astonished and said among themselves, 'Then who can be saved?'" (Mark 10:17-26).

Here we have the key to understanding the parenting metaphor of salvation. When we think of love, we tend to think of the ways in which we human beings love. To imagine the vastness of God's love for us is difficult if not impossible. We ask with the disciples, "How is this possible?" Jesus answered his disciples immediately: "For human beings it is impossible, but not for God. All things are possible for God" (Mark 10:27).
Narya, retired Catholic and Franciscan
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MithLuin
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Post by MithLuin »

Baptism

Christian baptism is done because it is a sacrament - Jesus himself was baptized by John to begin his public ministry, yes, but more importantly, he told us to ;)
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. Matthew 28:19-20a
These were Jesus' final instructions before he ascended into heaven - often called the Great Commision, it explains why Christianity has such a focus on making converts. But it also explains why baptism is a sacrament (not just for Catholics) - it is explicitly connected to becoming a Christian. The grace of baptism is how you join the Church.

The practice of infant baptism developed fairly early on. At first, the religion grew by converts only - none of the early Christians were "born" Christian, of course! Families would convert (mostly adults, but since they speak of "households" that would mean kids too) and all be baptized and the apostles would lay on hands so they could receive the Holy Spirit (what we now call confirmation).

As time went on, families who were already Christian had to figure out what to do with their new kids - how do you initiate the next generation? Also, as time went on, the instructions that new (adult) converts received prior to baptism became more structured. A logistics problem arose, as well - the bishop was responsible for welcoming new members (laying on hands), but he could not be everywhere at once. This situation was dealt with by separating the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. Baptism could be given to babies by the local church (no bishop needed), but then confirmation was reserved for the "adult" members, and the bishop would handle that when he visited the church. Adult converts still received both together.

For Catholics, there are three sacraments of Initiation: Baptism, Eucharist and Confirmation. In the Orthodox church, you can receive all three as a baby, though they will not let you receive Eucharist again until you have reached the age of reason. Their biblical basis for this is Jesus' command to let the little children come to him, and not to hinder them. Baptism and Confirmation are two parts of the same sacrament - you only receive each once. Baptism does cleanse the soul of original sin, and begins your life of grace in Christ. Confirmation seals you with the Holy Spirit. They complement one another, really. Baptism is allowed without individual consent, because it is seen as an opportunity to share in God's life (grace), and the consent of the parents is needed. You are not allowed to go around randomly baptizing other people's kids! Eucharist is generally reserved until you've reached the age of reason (7 or 8, though the age used to be 12), and confirmation is saved for you to make an adult commitment to the faith (though again, you must have reached the age of reason). Sacraments are not withheld, because they provide graces, and it is considered very bad to deny someone graces. So, if a child requests confirmation, it is occasionally granted. It is the decision of the bishop, though, whether any individual is ready to receive a sacrament.

People who want to be "rebaptized" are often looking for a way to start over. After all, if they lost their faith for a time and just recently renewed it, they want some "sign" that they've started again. Catholics have the sacrament of reconciliation, which offers forgiveness of sins and a renewal of the relationship of faith. I do not know if the Protestant denominations that offer multiple baptisms have anything like this - I guess it would depend upon the particular church.


Baptism is related, of course, to how you get into heaven. Luckily, that question has a very straightforward answer:

Jesus.

The nuance is in the interpretation, as always. All Christians are agreed that the only way anyone can get into heaven is because Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead. Without that, we're all, well....out of luck.

So, his role is crystal clear :D

The question arises, though, okay, great, so what do we have to do to get that to apply to us?

The answers are divided.

Some Christians will say that you can't do anything - God just picks some people to get into heaven, and you just have to hope you are a lucky one. At least, that is my very informal understanding of the Calvinist doctrine of predestination. Since I don't believe it, I've probably explained it poorly.

Others will say that you have to be baptized, ie, officially become a Christian, and then die in a state of grace (no mortal sin on your soul). Since everyone is born with original sin (as Hobby mentioned), you need baptism to meet that criteria. Hence the panic to get sickly babies baptized ASAP.

Other people will say that you need to believe in your heart and confess with your tongue that Jesus Christ is lord - a personal declaration of faith.

But no one (I hope) really thinks it is that cut and dry.

Basically, it is asking the wrong question. Much better to ask, "How should I live my life?" than to ask "How do I get into heaven when I die?"

Christians believe that Jesus is the judge, determining who gets into heaven and who does not. He explained the criteria he will use to do that in this parable:
"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." Matthew 25:31-46
The warning here is clear: if you think you've got his system figured out, and you check off the boxes "Baptised? <check> Confessed Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior? <check> Joined the one true Church? <check> Do whatever people told me I had to do to get into heaven? <check> ...." you might be in for a rude surprise on judgement day ;). Jesus judges hearts. And while it is true that you need these things - you have to be "righteous" for instance - how you get there is not a matter of jumping through hoops.

Now, obviously, it is a job of the Churches to teach people how to do this correctly. I am not suggesting that the items on the "checklist" don't matter. I'm just saying it shouldn't be treated as a checklist. A pretty obvious way to accept God's grace would be to seek out baptism. But is it the only way? And are we really going to say for certain that that is the way Jesus will judge it?

In short, no. The Catholic Church does teach that baptism is necessary for salvation. But, there are some exceptions ;). There is something called "baptism of desire". This includes people who wanted to be baptized, but did not have a chance to receive the sacrament before their death. It also includes those who would have wanted to be baptized, had they known that this was in accord with God's will.

As soon as you admit that, it is clear that we cannot place any limits on who can be saved. No one can be saved except through Jesus - but even someone who has never heard of Jesus can still be saved by his death and resurrection. It is a mystery, but we trust God to sort that out ;).

Mel Gibson belongs to a group that is an offshoot of the Catholic Church, but currently in schism, I believe. This group does teach that you must be a Catholic to go to heaven. But, well, celebrities tend to have very odd religious beliefs. This reminds me of a joke I heard as a kid:

St. Peter is giving someone a tour of heaven, showing them all the different houses. He then says "shhhh, we have to be quiet." After they walk by the house, he explains, "the Baptists live in that one. They think they're the only people here."

The Catholic Church teaches that there is no salvation outside the Church - but that just means that everyone who is saved is saved through the Church, whether they know it or not ;). In other words, calling yourself "Christian" is not the important part. Being a Christian is, but only if Christian is defined as "true follower of Christ" - and only if Jesus gets to say who his true followers are!

Of course, this does not mean that everybody is saved. Anyone who chooses to reject Jesus and salvation...well, has the power to do so.

These ideas are explained more fully by the Vatican (surprise, surprise): Dominus Iesus
(and in German)

So, what happens to a very good man who declared himself to be an atheist? Only God knows. Being good (alone) does not get you into heaven, because of course you need to accept grace to do that. But I will not presume to know that man's heart. If his life was truly that radiant, then I would think that must involve God's grace shining through. I do not mean to downplay what he said - he may have been very adamant in his belief that there was no God. But all goodness comes from God, and so the two must be inextricably related. In the parable, it is the people who did loving deeds, but did not realize they were serving Christ, who get into heaven. That has to bode well for people like him... :)


What is wrong with Christianity today? We are too soft, too timid. None of us would stand outside in the snow for three days to show our repentence. We are too attached to creature comforts and cannot handle the poverty - that complete trust that God will provide. I know this will sound ridiculously callous - but just to make the point, many Christians lost their homes in the wake of Hurricane Katrina. Do all of them say, "wow, we survived, praise God!" and move on with their lives? Umm, no. Many of them are upset by their damaged homes and losing all their stuff...and are having trouble keeping their marriages and families together on account of this. I am not condemning them! I know it's only human, and I would behave much worse, I am sure. But, as an outsider, it is easy enough to see that sacrificing relationships over stuff is hardly "Christian." Christianity demands a lot of things that are impossibly hard, and I understand why Job is a book in the Bible. I think that many Christians give up a bit too easily when faced with anything that requires fortitude, or moral fibre, or whatever - myself included. I speak of American Christians, because those are the ones I know ;). The Church in other parts of the world likely has different problems.

Yikes, I don't like the way that sounded. Honestly, I know it is awful to lose your house. My aunt and uncle's family lost all of their possessions in a house fire. I'm not trying to say that this is some trifle! And obviously, the Christian response isn't to say "hmmm, if you were a good person, your reaction would be --------" The Christian thing to do is to help people in need, not judge them! I just had to pick some example of what I meant...

A better example :) The worst sin (ever) is pride. Pride is what makes us think we are so great, of course...but it is also what leads to evil in thinking we are so right. Conviction is not a bad thing - but conviction coupled with pride (or fear) can be horrible. Cultivating a sense of "orthodoxy" (some beliefs are right, others are wrong) should not be done apart from cultivating a spirit of humility...which leads to genuine love of others, and compassion...not judgement and slaughter.

The weaknesses of any time reflect the weaknesses of the culture and the society. It is no surprise that the Crusades happened in Western Europe at a time when warfare was a way of life, as common as breathing. Soldiers who refrained from killing other Christians were doing really good....

And it is no surprise that slavery was accepted when a culture accepted that some human beings weren't really people....

And it is no surprise that respect for the sick and the elderly does not exist in a culture that thinks we can solve the problems of aging, and wants to hide from death.

Culture makes some virtues easy, and others difficult. Part of the measure of a good culture is one that encourages virtue, not depravity. But it is difficult to step outside your own time and place - who knows what the future will see us as?
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Post by Jnyusa »

Wow!

Many thinks to narya and Mithluin for looking up the doctrines and giving such excellent (and thorough) explanations.

:bow:

Jn
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Post by eborr »

I would have liked to respond in more detail to the various posts, however a combination of being off-line due to moving, sickness poor internet connections in South Africa, I have only really been able to get on line.

I read a comment that it was speculation that Christianity survived because Constantine adopted it - so it may be be it is an easily justifiable piece of speculation.

Constantine was a strong emporer who "restored " the empire through the foundation of the Roman empire - and established the power vested in the Bishop of Rome.

During the days of the early church the bible was edited and shaped according to the prevailing ruling group within the church - who physically surpressed schism - so the version of the church that you have today was shaped and controlled by folk who were essentially politicians.

At the end of the day it all depends on the individuals personal relationship with the divine, and it seems to me that however unique these realtionships might be, and who am I to question that they are real, inevitably they seem to be shaped by the culture in which one is born.

People like Cat Stevens are pretty rare.

This is not a comment on the matter that there have been many good Christians, or Muslims, or Jews or Hindu's but similarly there have been many bad one's.

People like Osama bin Laden, or Ignatius Loyala would claim to be men of "faith" and who is to say that they are not - other than at the best the concencus of contemporary thinking by scholars or at worst historical revisionists, who believe their interpretation of the texts, or their personal relationship with the divine, gives them a level of prescience denied to their less savoury predecessors.
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Post by Jnyusa »

eborr, I'm glad you were able to find the thread!

jn
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MithLuin
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Post by MithLuin »

erm....what's wrong with St. Ignatius of Loyola?

While I don't pretend to be a huge fan (with narya, I'm more on the Franciscan end of the spectrum), my father and brothers are Jesuit-educated, and quite devoted to him. And I have to admit that his Spritual Exercises provide a good grounding.

As far as Constantine goes - what else did he preserve of Rome? Do we still have Roman law? Do we still speak Latin? What of Roman culture survived (besides the Christian religion)? The Renaissance was 1,000 years later.

Christianity survived (and harbored aspects of Roman culture with it for quite some time). While Constantine played a role, perhaps, he didn't do it single-handedly. So, the contention that whatever religion he had picked (ie, the cult of Mithras) would have survived and thrived in Western Civ. is a bit of a stretch. Perhaps, of course. Many things could have happened. But I think it is fair to label it speculation.


Yes, there are many politicians in Church history. There are also many saints. I don't think anyone would label Pope St. Gregory the Great a 'mere' politician! 'Servant of the servants of God' speaks volumes about how he saw the seat of Peter. The idea is to sort through - some of the politicians made good leaders, but didn't pretend to offer spiritual advice to anyone (for example, Lanfranc, Archbishop of Canterbury under William the Conqueror). Others made for saints, but lousy leaders (his successor, St. Anselm of Bec). Ocassionally, they are combined, as in Pope John Paul II. The early Church had those who were embroiled in politics, as well as those who fled to the desert....and were sometimes brought back, kicking and screaming, to take a role of leadership. They weren't all politicians, any more than they were all saints.
It seems to me that however unique these realtionships might be, and who am I to question that they are real, inevitably they seem to be shaped by the culture in which one is born.
Which is why everyone maintains the status quo. The churches around the world don't grow or spread... Ummm....are you familiar with the current state of Christianity in Africa? Many cultures are entwined with their religion (religion is, among other things, part of culture), but that doesn't mean that people don't reject the culture or change it. People can be raised in one faith (or no faith) and come to another later in life. It really happens all the time. The idea of Christianity being "universal" is that is spans cultures. It isn't like Judaism, tied to one group.
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Post by Impenitent »

It isn't like Judaism, tied to one group.
In what way? I don't think I understand what you're saying, as I'm aware that lots and lots of brands of Judaism exist in accordance with the local culture - in northern Africa, in India, in China, not to mention the differences between Sephardi and Ashkenazi.

So...I'm not getting your point. Could you explain? thanks. :)
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MithLuin
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Post by MithLuin »

Good call, I should have specified ancient Judaism. I was thinking of how the Jews interacted with the other cultures in the Middle East throughout the Old Testament, not the modern situation. Even so, there were Greek converts, so it was probably not the best distinction to make. All religions have a cultural component. Some are more cross-cultural, perhaps, but it isn't going to be absent, in any case. And even ones that are heavily tied to a particular culture are still adaptable to some extent.

My point was only that sometimes people do step outside their own cultural constructs.
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Post by Whistler »

I know this will sound ridiculously callous - but just to make the point, many Christians lost their homes in the wake of Hurricane Katrina. Do all of them say, "wow, we survived, praise God!" and move on with their lives? Umm, no. Many of them are upset by their damaged homes and losing all their stuff...and are having trouble keeping their marriages and families together on account of this.
A good friend of my family, a pastor from New Orleans, had recently retired from a life's work of pastoring when Katrina struck. He had just moved into a house he had built for himself and his wife, leaving his son to pastor the church in his place.

The hurricane destroyed the church completely, scattering its members across the country. He will never hear from most of them again.

It also destroyed his new house and everything he owned in the world.

Recently I went with some family members to look at the rotting shell of the pastor's ruined house. He had painted these words on the roof:

A PLACE OF GRACE

No bitterness, no despair. The Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away.
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Post by eborr »

MithLuin wrote:erm....what's wrong with St. Ignatius of Loyola?

While I don't pretend to be a huge fan (with narya, I'm more on the Franciscan end of the spectrum),
this is the core of my argument folk select the bits that suit them. I believe my brother in law was profoundly pychologically damaged by Jesuits.
As far as Constantine goes - what else did he preserve of Rome? Do we still have Roman law? Do we still speak Latin? What of Roman culture survived (besides the Christian religion)? The Renaissance was 1,000 years later.
Let's have a few facts shall we

Roman law forms the basis of many continental legal systems

Do we speak classical latin, no, but the difference between the Latin spoken in 700 BC and "Classical " latin was less profound than the difference between Classical Latin and Modern Italian, or Portuguese or Spanish -

Latin influenced the linguistic developmant of all Romance languages and to a lesser extent French, Latin influences English still - so Latin hasn't gone it have developed and mutated.

Lets look to politics, the Romans had the notion of the Senate,
they had the Eagle symbol which has been copied by tin-pot countries who want to rule the world, in addition the Romans created a number of political and social institutions that other states aspire to

They created the writing system which we use today -

To state that the sole surviving influence of the Roman empire is Christianity so it didn't need Rome to support it is frankly facile.

Christianity survived (and harbored aspects of Roman culture with it for quite some time). While Constantine played a role, perhaps, he didn't do it single-handedly. So, the contention that whatever religion he had picked (ie, the cult of Mithras) would have survived and thrived in Western Civ. is a bit of a stretch. Perhaps, of course. Many things could have happened. But I think it is fair to label it speculation.
Look to history Constantine the Great, was the epoch defining Emperor, true he was persuaded into Christianity by his wife and mother, but such was his influence that all future emporers felt oblidged to follow his path, in the same way that from the time of Augustus, Emperors referred to themselves as Caesar.

Hence if Constantine had followed Mithras or anything other then Emperors would have followed that, this would have become the state religion and would have been the dominat force within Western Europe, Christianity would have remained a number of mutually destructive sects.


Yes, there are many politicians in Church history. There are also many saints. I don't think anyone would label Pope St. Gregory the Great a 'mere' politician! 'Servant of the servants of God' speaks volumes about how he saw the seat of Peter. The idea is to sort through - some of the politicians made good leaders, but didn't pretend to offer spiritual advice to anyone (for example, Lanfranc, Archbishop of Canterbury under William the Conqueror). Others made for saints, but lousy leaders (his successor, St. Anselm of Bec). Ocassionally, they are combined, as in Pope John Paul II. The early Church had those who were embroiled in politics, as well as those who fled to the desert....and were sometimes brought back, kicking and screaming, to take a role of leadership. They weren't all politicians, any more than they were all saints.

sorry you are operating on opinion here, I think John Paul II was a very reactionary Pope, who happened to suit the conservative tradition in the Church - it always seemed to me a great shame that John Paul I only lasted a short time - he struck me as a much better choice.

I cannot comment on Gregory, it's more that 25 years since I studied medieval ecclesiatical history - and the only thing I can remember about him is the chant.

It seems to me that however unique these realtionships might be, and who am I to question that they are real, inevitably they seem to be shaped by the culture in which one is born.
Which is why everyone maintains the status quo. The churches around the world don't grow or spread... Ummm....are you familiar with the current state of Christianity in Africa? Many cultures are entwined with their religion (religion is, among other things, part of culture), but that doesn't mean that people don't reject the culture or change it. People can be raised in one faith (or no faith) and come to another later in life. It really happens all the time. The idea of Christianity being "universal" is that is spans cultures. It isn't like Judaism, tied to one group.
I happen to know Africa pretty well, in fact that is where I am writing this post from, and whilst my knowledge of the Christianity within Africa is not encyclopedic, it seems to me that the growth of the individual churchs within Africa is closely tied to a varying range of factors, primarily how much "earthly" benefit is offered by each individual church. Religion in Africa is a pretty practical thing.
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