The nature of your deity

[Primula Baggins]

And if we want to put it in a less inclusive way, the idea that the different views of God are not equally clear certainly allows people to believe that their sacred texts and beliefs are the only correct ones.

[JewelSong]

In the same manner, Muslims do not believe Jesus was the Son of God, but that he was a prophet; nonetheless, the God of Islam is identified with the God of the Jews and the God of the Christians.

The Muslim God and the Judeo/Christian God is the same God and both religions spring from the same tree.

Happens that God promised the same thing to both Abraham's sons...Ishmael, born of Hagar (Sarah's servant) and Isaac, born of Sarah (Abraham's wife.)

After Sarah had Isaac, she got all pissy about Hagar and Ishmael and demanded that they be sent away (even though it was her idea that her husband impregnate Hagar in the first place.) Hagar goes off and sits with her son under a tree to die. But God speaks to her and tells her that he will make a great nation from her son (he tell Abraham the same thing, presumably so he won't feel like a total d*ck for sending her away.)


The child grew and was weaned, and on the day Isaac was weaned Abraham held a great feast. 9But Sarah saw that the son whom Hagar the Egyptian had borne to Abraham was mocking, and she said to Abraham, "Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac."

The matter distressed Abraham greatly because it concerned his son. But God said to him, "Do not be so distressed about the boy and your maidservant. Listen to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned. I will make the son of the maidservant into a nation also, because he is your offspring."

Early the next morning Abraham took some food and a skin of water and gave them to Hagar. He set them on her shoulders and then sent her off with the boy. She went on her way and wandered in the desert of Beersheba.

When the water in the skin was gone, she put the boy under one of the bushes. Then she went off and sat down nearby, about a bowshot away, for she thought, "I cannot watch the boy die." And as she sat there nearby, she began to sob.

God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, "What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation."

Then God opened her eyes and she saw a well of water. So she went and filled the skin with water and gave the boy a drink.

God was with the boy as he grew up. He lived in the desert and became an archer. While he was living in the Desert of Paran, his mother got a wife for him from Egypt. (Genesis: 21 8 - 21)

And we never hear of them again - at least not in the Bible. However, if you look in the Koran, you will find Ishmael counted as Mohammad's ancestor.

[WampusCat]

I've never understood the notion of different views of the same God. The only way I can see that that could be the case is if the various sacred writings were consistent with one another, or if they were none of them truth. For example, it can't both be true that Jesus was the Son of God and that He was not the Son of God (applying the same meaning to the phrase in each case). One of those statements is true and the other is false. I reject the notion that they can both somehow be regarded as true, or that the discrepancy can somehow be regarded as irrelevant.


Re vison's request, I'm offering this idea for the record, not as a point of argument.


edit to add thought

Not argument, but a statement of my thoughts:

I think the particulars of religious belief are less important than the transformative power of belief. To put it in Christian terms, the point is not whether you assent to every word of the Nicene Creed but whether you have cared for "the least of these," whether you love God and love your neighbor.

I'm reading an interesting book, "The Emerging Christian Way," which contains essays from various writers and theologians about what Marcus Borg calls the emerging Christian paradigm. I had come to my own views before knowing that others were heading the same direction, but perhaps Borg can explain it better (italics are his):

... What does it mean to believe in God as known in Jesus? For the earlier paradigm, it most often means believing in a set of beliefs about God, the Bible, and Jesus. This is faith as belief, as believing that a set of claims is true.

The emerging paradigm recovers the pre-modern Christian understanding of believing. For it, the question "Do you believe in God as known in Jesus?" has two primary meanings. "Do you trust in God as known in Jesus?" And "Are you loyal to God as known in Jesus? Do you give your allegiance to God as known in Jesus?" It is trust and loyalty that transform us. Beliefs may precede them or follow them or remain quite unconnected to them. But beliefs do not save us, do not transform us. Trust and loyalty do.

This combination of trust and loyalty ... is the purpose of the Christian life: centering in God, and centering in God's passion for the world. This is the vision at the heart of transformation-centered Christianity. Indeed, it is the heart of Christianity.

Borg's book "The Heart of Christianity" spells out these ideas in more detail.

[Maria]

I think that throughout the ages occasionally there are born people with the ability to understand a fragment of the nature of the universe. They then tell others about what they've intuited, and if they have sufficient communications skills and charisma, it strikes a chord with other people becuase it feels right. Later, when the originator of the metaphor is gone, the followers repeat the metaphor until it becomes dogma and the spark of understanding behind it is lost.

I think all religions start with a glimpse of the nature of what's really going on behind the scenes, and that all religions start as a sincere effort to better understand. I also think that the major differences between religions are merely due to the different metaphors used to describe what the various prophets originally understood. At the heart, they are all trying to describe the same thing, and that they will all ultimately fail- because we are merely human. We can't even visualize something in 5 dimensions, much less understand anything real about a being and/or situation that transcends space and time.

All we can do is describe it by metaphor, and that is completely inadequate.

[Cerin]

Would this lead you to conclude that Jews do not believe in the same God as Christians?

It would not lead me to that conclusion from my perspective as a Christian, because I perceive the truths of the Old and New Testaments to be consistent, and to be representing the same God. It is quite possible that someone who does not perceive the truths of the Old and New Testaments to be consistent, and to be representing the same God, might reach that conclusion. In fact, I would find it odd if they did not reach that conclusion, unless they regard neither book as true.

That is an extremely odd statement

It is not a statement I made, so its oddness would seem to be irrelevant.

<snip> I understand that Jews believe that Christians worship the same God, although they also believe that Christians are mistaken about certain matters (such as the divinity of Jesus).

I don't presume to know what Jews believe, collectively or individually, about the God that Christians worship. I would certainly not be surprised or offended to find that a Jew believed I was worshipping something other.

In the same manner, Muslims do not believe Jesus was the Son of God, but that he was a prophet;

I have to reject 'in the same manner'. Jesus was a Jew; He prayed to the God of the Jews; the history of Jesus (if one regards it as history) is a history of Jews; the history of Christianity begins with Jews and is founded in the Hebrew scriptures. Was the prophet of the Muslims a Christian? Did he pray to the God of the Christians? Is his history (if one regards it as history) a history of Christians? Did the history of Islam begin with Christians and is it founded in the New Testament? I think the answer to all of these questions is 'no', so I reject what I took as the implied suggestion that there is anything of 'same manner' in the relation of Islam to Christianity, as in the relation of Christianity to Judaism.

nonetheless, the God of Islam is identified with the God of the Jews and the God of the Christians.

The god of Islam is identified so by Muslims, I presume because they find no inconsistency there (in the same way I find no inconsistency between the Old and New Testaments, but someone of another religion might), or simply because, inconsistency or not, their prophet declared it to be so. However, because I do find an irreconcilable inconsistency there, I cannot regard the Muslim god as the same God I am worshipping, if the concepts involved have any real meaning at all.

It's no different from the case of Mormons, whom I also do not regard as worshipping the same God that I worship, because of what I see as irreconcilable differences between the two. Anyone may claim to anyone that they believe they are worshipping the same god as the other. It makes no sense to me, unless there is really no true meaning to any of these things.

[JewelSong]

I cannot regard the Muslim god as the same God I am worshipping

Interesting, because both "Gods" come from the exact same scriptures, as i outlined above.

Judaism, Christianity and Islam all are "Abrahamic Faiths" - that is, they all come from the book of Genesis and from Abraham's lineage.

The three faiths are branches from the same tree and have the same roots.

[Cerin]

Interesting, because both "Gods" come from the exact same scriptures, as i outlined above.

Judaism, Christianity and Islam all are "Abrahamic Faiths" - that is, they all come from the book of Genesis and from Abraham's lineage.

The three faiths are branches from the same tree and have the same roots.

It simply doesn't follow that because peoples are related by blood, their concept of deity is related. Suppose two twins were separated at birth, and one grew up to be a Wiccan and the other a Buddhist. Would we then posit that Wicca and Buddhism have the same roots, solely on the basis of the fact that adherents of each share the same parentage? Suppose I'm related to Joseph Smith? Does that mean his and my God must be the same?

The only relation of Islam to the Hebrew and Christian scriptures, is that their prophet declared them to be related. The blood connection is irrelevant to the question of what god they worship.

edit

But you know, this is starting to look like argument to me. So could I ask that people please stop quoting me? I offered my comment in the spirit of vison's request: Please, people. I don't want argument, just information.


edit to add quote

[WampusCat]

Cerin, I only quoted you to make it clear what prompted my post in case the discussion veered elsewhere while I was posting. I was trying to state my own views rather than refute yours. If you prefer, I'll edit the quote out.

[Cerin]

No, Wampus, please don't edit your post. I'm just asking from here on in that people stop quoting me in order to argue against what I said (or what they thought I said). It shouldn't be necessary to quote me, in order for people to do what vison requested, and offer their own thoughts on any particular idea releated to God.

[JewelSong]

Cerin, I always quote the post I am responding to, in order to keep things from getting confusing. It makes it clearer what I am trying to say.

You quoted me for the same reason.

I was not trying to start an argument.

[Cerin]

I'm sure you weren't, Jewel. It was my post that provoked argument, and my request was made so as to nip it in the bud.

[JewelSong]

No problem.

Maria, I wanted to say that I very much liked your post...especially this bit:

I think that throughout the ages occasionally there are born people with the ability to understand a fragment of the nature of the universe. They then tell others about what they've intuited, and if they have sufficient communications skills and charisma, it strikes a chord with other people becuase it feels right.

For me, that person is Jesus...but I believe there have been others and may be others now. But for me, I see God through a Jesus-shaped window, as it were.

Later, when the originator of the metaphor is gone, the followers repeat the metaphor until it becomes dogma and the spark of understanding behind it is lost.

Sadly, I think this is also true. And this is why in my own faith and my own "vision" of God, I try to keep things as simple as possible and keep my heart open to the Divine.

[Maria]

I can't read a poem and appreciate the beauty behind the words, I don't seem to have the "poetry appreciation" module installed in my brain.

But I can read about many diverse religions and feel the underlying truth behind them. The commonalities outweigh the diversities, if only people would just SEE it. But they get caught up in arguing over the details of the metaphor and don't see the beauty of the common threads running through them all.

I was raised without religion. Perhaps this is why I'm not drawn to any particular window. They are all shiny.

[vison]

I must say that the responses in this thread were very interesting to me. I know that Halofirians are probably not "typical", but I admit there are things I thought would turn up and didn't turn up.

I guess this thread has reached the end of its natural life. I think I'll start a thread on "why I don't believe in a god".

[Pearly Di]

I must say that the responses in this thread were very interesting to me. I know that Halofirians are probably not "typical", but I admit there are things I thought would turn up and didn't turn up.

Such as?

[JewelSong]

I must say that the responses in this thread were very interesting to me. I know that Halofirians are probably not "typical", but I admit there are things I thought would turn up and didn't turn up.

Such as?

I would be interested in hearing your answer to this as well!

[Frelga]

I must say that the responses in this thread were very interesting to me. I know that Halofirians are probably not "typical", but I admit there are things I thought would turn up and didn't turn up.

Such as?

I would be interested in hearing your answer to this as well!

And I.

[vison]

You will, but in the other thread, I guess.

I've had a busy day and it's not over yet. Will get back to all this, I promise!!!