The Gospel for Holy Week

[Primula Baggins]

Not a Haugen or Haas fan, eh, soli?

Me neither. It all . . . blends. Meh.

I think congregations are capable of appreciating MUCH better music than they are often asked to appreciate. You should have seen the reaction in my church when the more traditional service was given some music from Schubert for parts of the liturgy. They loved it. Easy parts to sing, lovely harmonies. . . .

I am on the committee that decides these things every month, and we do spend much of our three-hour meeting studying the various arrangements of this liturgy or that, or this hymn or that. We can't all sing, but we all know and love music, and our music director can sight-read anything. For the liturgies we sing through everything before making a decision; the lack of skill in some of us (such as me) makes us, I guess, a fair sample for the congregation. . . .

Still. I think I would know I was in Heaven if I could sing and make a joyful noise that anyone else would want to hear. I was so happy to be able to do that on a viola instead.

[Crucifer]

Just getting ready to head in...

Introitus: Handel, Hallalujah.
Mass: Mozart Missa Brevis, blahdy blahdy blah.
Motet: Mozart something or other and something else.

Does it show how dedicated I am?

We also have evensong, but I don't expect to get out of Eucharist before it begins.

[Primula Baggins]

Yes, you're dedicated, Crucifer.

I suppose this is a good thread in which to wish a bright and blessed Easter to all who celebrate it.

[Lurker]

He has risen! Alleluia!!! Alleluia!!!

[WampusCat]

Alleluia!!!

The youth sang a couple of songs during communion, led by my son on guitar. It sounded great and was a nice change of pace, since our organist only seems to know German chorales (not that there's anything wrong with that ... but it is nice to hear other pieces now and then, especially since our choir's not very good.).

This morning my son came downstairs ready to go ... in a Grateful Dead T-shirt. "No. No skeletons on Easter," I told him. He actually tried to make a theological argument for it ... tomb, victory over death, etc. Mean mom insisted. He ended up looking fairly respectable. No skeletons.

[Elentári]

HE IS RISEN INDEED, ALLELUIA!

Crucifer - in case you're interested, at Chichester the music list was:
MATINS:
Clucas Responses
Howells Coll Reg
Byrd Haec Dies

EUCHARIST:
Flor Peeters Missa Festiva
Thurlow Lord, this is thy feast

EVENSONG:
Clucas Responses
Wood in Eb No. 2
Stanford - Ye Choirs of New Jerusalem

[Frelga]

Happy Easter to all my Christian friends.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I hope all who celebrate Easter had a joyous and satisfying celebration.

This has been a very interesting and profitable thread for me. I very much appreciate the opportunity to learn more about both the beliefs of people who come from a different tradition than I do, and even more how people celebrate those beliefs. The discussion about how music is incorporated into the services was particularly enjoyable for me.

However, I do want to remind people that folks of all different beliefs and traditions are reading this forum, even when we don't post in a thread like this. As long as the thread was about sharing information, I felt that it was very valuable to anyone who was interested in learning more about the Easter tradition. But when it turned into an explicit celebration of beliefs that I don't share, it made me quite uncomfortable. Now, it may well be that no one else feels this way, but it has been bothering me enough that I really felt that I needed to say something. I don't think that kind of explicit message is appropriate at a forum that doesn't espouse one particular belief. I know that no one meant any harm, but then again if I don't say anything, than no one will know that it made me uncomfortable.

Thanks for listening.

[yovargas]

What is it about that that makes you uncomfortable, if I may ask?

[Andreth]

Just a little Tolkien for the day...

"Sing now, ye people of the Tower of Anor for the realm of Sauron is ended forever, and the Dark Tower thrown down.

Sing and rejoice, ye people of the Tower of Guard, for your watch hath not been in vain, and the Black Gate is broken, and your King has passed through, and he is victorious.

Sing ye children of the West, for your King shall come again, and he shall dwell among you all the days of your life. And the Tree that was withered shall be renewed, and he shall plant it in the high places, and the City shall be blessed.

Sing all ye people!"

[Voronwë the Faithful]

What is it about that that makes you uncomfortable, if I may ask?

yov, I will answer you privately, and I would ask that if anyone else wants to discuss it with me, that they also contact me privately.

[Crucifer]

Ah, the Mozart we did was terrible, and too slow.
The Handel should have been amazing, but there was so much damned INCENSE we couldn't breath!
The Mozart motet was abridged and ended on the dominant (for all you music types out there)
The Philips Ecce something Leo was BRILLIANT!!! WoO!

Then the afternoon was much of a muchness. I fell asleep while singing in the rehearsal, standing up.

Bleh.

[Lalaith]

Thanks, Mith. Yes, we usually cover joy pretty well, but I just really struggle with being Baptist from about Advent on through Easter. I'll probably be okay for the next 6 months or so.

Do you wish people a Happy Passover? I know it's a little late, but I hope those of you who celebrate Passover had a lovely time.

Our contemporary service actually turned out to be very nice. It became rather contemplative (which meant all of the cheery, pink, flowery video backgrounds I picked out for the songs had to be changed at the least minute to more somber tones of black, white, and grey). We had a wooden cross on the platform with a red spotlight on it. On the floor below it, we had a small table with two candles, a cup of juice, and a loaf of bread.

At the end of the service, we came up to tear off a piece of the bread and dip it in the juice. (That's quite different than the norm in our church, where the deacons pass around trays of little pieces of bread and little cups of juice.)

Anyway, it was nice in its own way. (I know there are lots of things "not right" about it, but you have to remember that we are not a liturgical church. So no one thinks twice about serving Communion on Saturday and not serving Communion on Easter--which still blows my mind. )

[Pearly Di]

Anyway, it was nice in its own way. (I know there are lots of things "not right" about it, but you have to remember that we are not a liturgical church. So no one thinks twice about serving Communion on Saturday and not serving Communion on Easter--which still blows my mind. )

a

'Not right' according to whom? Sorry. There's a very strong NonConformist living inside me still, Anglican though I be.

All the same, I do really appreciate belonging to a liturgical church, for many reasons.

And, needless to say, I respect other Christian traditions to which I don't belong.

Still ... no Communion on Easter Sunday????

Egads, that's not quite right.

[Crucifer]

Still ... no Communion on Easter Sunday????

I must confess, yesterday was the first time in a long time that I didn't take communion. I'd been debating it for a long time, and it just felt hypocritical, as I don't honestly think I believe in the whole show any more...

[nerdanel]

Do you wish people a Happy Passover? I know it's a little late, but I hope those of you who celebrate Passover had a lovely time.

Passover is actually not technically quite over. It's a 7-8 day holiday (depending on whether you live in Israel or the diaspora, and whether you're Orthodox or more liberal) that's still in progress. Also, I've been wondering whether "Happy Passover" would be okay - I think it should be fine, since Jews wish each other "Chag sameach," which loosely translates to joyous festival --> happy holiday.

This might be the liberal in me, but I have a hard time with "Happy Passover" just because the events being commemorated describe the suffering of one people in order to liberate another. Even if the former were the "aggressors," they lived in a monarchy where the majority of them were not decisionmakers. So, it seems to me that Passover commemorates a lot of suffering of innocents - and though it may have been necessary, it's hard for me to embrace it as "joyous."

[Crucifer]

Well, Easter as a whole describes the suffering of Christ in order to liberate humanity. How is that different?
Especially when you consider that he died for the sins of humanity, and yet humanity still sins on a second by second basis, as if we just couldn't give a crap.

[Frelga]

Nel, acknowledging the suffering of Egyptians is a part of traditional Passover Seder, so you are not actually being liberal. The oral tradition has a story of the God chastising his angels for rejoicing after the Pharaoh's army perished in the Red Sea, pointing out that it was wrong to celebrate when His creatures were dying. And of course, there's the tradition of spilling a drop of wine for every plague, to show that our joy is diminished by the remembrance of this suffering.

I think this relates to something Jewish sages addressed many times, and that is the idea of communal responsibility, the idea that the unjust ruler "drives the presence of God from the entire community" (can't remember which Rabbi said that), and if this goes on long enough, the innocent people suffer, as the God's judgment descends on a people as an entity. In recent history, you might think of German civilians suffering after the WWII, whether or not they were personally involved in the Nazi oppression. It is not a fashionable concept in these individual-oriented days.

[nerdanel]

Well, Easter as a whole describes the suffering of Christ in order to liberate humanity. How is that different?
Especially when you consider that he died for the sins of humanity, and yet humanity still sins on a second by second basis, as if we just couldn't give a crap.

Well, for me personally the difference is that I don't share Christian beliefs on that subject or celebrate Easter. But, if I was to accept as true Christian beliefs on Easter for the sake of argument, I'd still distinguish the two because, off the top of my head...

- Jesus' sacrifice was ultimately voluntary; within the Christian paradigm, he accepted death to redeem the world;
- Jesus was resurrected from the dead - i.e. he suffered for humanity, but he didn't have to die in the sense of surrendering his existence for all time (or for more than three days in Earth/human time, if you want to contend that other humans will later experience an afterlife). The Egyptian firstborns did, regardless of age or blameworthiness for the Israelites' slavery;
- The suffering and death of the Egyptians did not have (according to anyone) the cosmic significance that Jesus' death had according to Christians - namely, to redeem [humanity/believers/some subset of humanity or believers, throughout time] from sin. The suffering and death of (some innocent, some guilty) Egyptians was merely to change a human mind (Pharaoh's) so that he let the Israelites go.

Oh, and incidentally, even though the suffering and death of Jesus is commemorated in some of the most deeply spiritual moments of the Christian liturgical year (Holy Thursday, Good Friday, Easter Vigil), it is not celebrated with words like "joyous" (which was my objection to the way Passover is characterized in Jewish tradition.) Indeed, Jesus' suffering and death, despite being viewed as necessary by Christian tradition, has for millennia inspired often violent outrage by self-identified Christians against the descendants of those viewed as responsible, whether fairly or not.

EDIT Frelga, yes, I was thinking of the custom of spilling drops of wine to refer to the plagues, which I think is a good and necessary part of Pesach custom. But still, I think I am more comfortable thinking of Passover in terms of gratefulness or deliverance than joyousness. "Happy Passover" seems oxymoronic to me (though consistent with "chag sameach"), just because Passover literally refers to the Angel of G-d passing over Jewish homes while inflicting death on Egyptian ones. "Happy," or its Hebrew equivalent, just doesn't seem to be the right word to describe that concept.

And yes, I am unashamedly a creature of modern times with respect to individual responsibility, so yes, communal responsibility strikes me as decidedly unfashionable.

[Frelga]

- The suffering and death of the Egyptians did not have (according to anyone) the cosmic significance that Jesus' death had according to Christians - namely, to redeem [humanity/believers/some subset of humanity or believers, throughout time] from sin. The suffering and death of (some innocent, some guilty) Egyptians was merely to change a human mind (Pharaoh's) so that he let the Israelites go.

Well, you might say within the paradigm of Torah, it was no less significant, since the object was the creation of the Nation of Israel and the giving of the Law. But that's a separate thread.