The Resolution of Doubt.

[Sassafras]

The idea for this thread emerged after a comment Prim made in the ‘Hell’ thread.

….I think a lot of us Christians are a lot less sure of a lot of things than you are sure we are.


That one comment brought back to the surface something which has intrigued me for years ….that more than likely most of us, over the course of our lives, have faced our religious beliefs and grappled with questions of faith , primarily the existence of God.

And I began to wonder if we had all asked similar questions and arrived at different conclusions.

I suspect that I share a commonality with the most Christians, in that I was baptized (C/of/E), attended services and Sunday school in a somewhat desultory fashion and accepted the faith of my forebears without giving it too much thought. It was just a fact of life while I was growing up. Religion was taught in school, we said the Lord’s prayer everyday in assembly. I even, in my early teens, flirted with the idea of converting to Roman Catholicism and becoming a nun. I thought I had a vocation, you see. I didn’t. I was merely indulging in the dramatic (something I was wont to do in my teenage years).

Anyway …. as I have no doubt made abundantly clear on more than one occasion, the pendulum has swung and I now occupy the opposite end of the spectrum and label myself an agnostic-tending-towards-atheist. It has taken me decades to solidify my unbelief and while I cannot put my finger on any one particular event that lead me to this conclusion, I do know that I have examined and re-examined the arguments for God ... and, intuitively, for me, they have come up lacking. The concept of a supreme being as The First Cause, the Creator of All Things just doesn’t make sense …. It contravenes my gut instinct that the Universe has no purpose other than itself. In other words, the idea of God is, to me, not only illogical but also unnecessary.

Whew!

Many of you have reached an entirely different conclusion I know. If it isn’t too impertinent to ask, I am very interested in understanding the emotional/intellectual steps taken in order to resolve the doubts.
How did you decide to believe ... or not believe? Can the process be described?

<Just so you know, I wrestled a bit with the appropriate forum for this thread ... and almost went to LBL because I want everyone's imput ... but took advice and ... well ... here it is.>

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Dear Sassy, what a wonderful - and yet fraught with emotion - idea for a thread. As you know, I thought it would be more appropriately placed here then in LBL precisely because it is so sensitive. But I want to emphasize that the sensibilities of all people, no matter their level of belief should be EQUALLY protected and respected in this thread. There should be no reason why ANYONE should feel that they can not participate, because it is not about any one belief system or lack thereof, but rather about all of them. I think that questions and requests for clarifications about WHY certain people reached a certain decision would be appropriate, but judgments as to the appropriateness or correctness of those decisions would not be. If you think something is ridiculous or false, keep it too yourself. I am quite sure that it is not necessary for me to belabor these points, but I do so anyway. Needless to say, each person is going to (or at least should) have the most to say about their own situation.

For myself, I find myself going in the opposite direction as Sassy, sort of. I grew up in a completely agnostic home, and had no religious training. I actually did get Bar Mitzvahed when I was 16 (three years later) but it was a total farce in which I mouthed phonetic words read off of a page (ironically in a very Orthodox synagogue, which was the only one willing to accommodate my brief desire to do this, which was more to impress a particular girl then any other reason ). However, I have in recent years been finding myself more and more believing in an infinite being. It is not necessarily the Yahweh of the Jewish faith (although there is much of the teachings of Judiasm that I find very attractive), nor is it the Trinity of Christianity (although I also find much of the teachings of Jesus Christ very attractive). There is a patina of Asian traditions that have influenced me (yes, Ath, particular the Tao), and more then a patina of African traditions (not surprisingly). But the two greatest influences in my spiritual development over the past ten years or so have been the works of Tolkien, and the music of certain Rastafarians, particularly Bob Marley, the group Israel Vibrations, and most of all a young (actually not so young anymore) singer from Jamaica named Jephter McClymount, better known in the reggae world as "Luciano" (because of "his luxuriant, near operatic vocal gifts").

I will have more to say about this later.

[vison]

Unlike many here, I grew up with no religious experience at all.

I came, long ago, to the same conclusions as Sassafras. I see something to respect in most religions, but there is nothing in any of them that can overturn the decision of my heart and mind.

In my mind, there is no "doubt". So, is there "certainty"? Pretty close. I'm open to the possibility that I'm mistaken, but it isn't a big concern. I don't much care, one way or the other. I've lived nearly 62 years thinking this way and it's worked so far.

I always liked this poem:

Invictus
by William Ernest Henley; 1849-1903


Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the Pit from pole to pole,

I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.


In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.

Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.


Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the horror of the shade,

And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find me, unafraid.


It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,

I am the master of my fate;
I am the captain of my soul.

[Jnyusa]

which was more to impress a particular girl then any other reason

This has long been considered a perfectly legitimate way of getting people into the synagogue! How many times I was told the story of the young man cajoled into making a minyan, and there he met ...!

I've sort of gone in both directions at once. My faith has become more abstract as I've grown older, but also more certain, if that makes sense. I know a lot less about God than I knew when I was ten years old but I am better convinced at an intellectual level that there is more to the universe than physicality.

Jn

[Primula Baggins]

"More to the universe than physicality"—yes, exactly.

I have loved and been fascinated by science all my life. To be honest, if I felt that it was impossible to both accept the scientific view of the universe and believe in God—if I saw them as utterly incompatible—I think I would have to choose science. I would rather be an atheist, anchored in physical reality, than be anchored entirely in the mystical, forced to deny the evidence of my own and other people's senses, the product of so many centuries of human observation and thought.

But I've never seen any need to make such a choice. The universe is what it is, and what we measure it to be; God is God, and knowledge of God comes in other ways.

[Sassafras]

But I've never seen any need to make such a choice. The universe is what it is, and what we measure it to be; God is God, and knowledge of God comes in other ways.

What ways, Prim?

Forgive me if this is overly intrusive, but have you never seriously questioned the existence of God?

Has your faith always been rock solid?

What I'm wondering about is not whether or not you (and Jn.) believe in God ... I know that you do ... but how you faced questions of doubt (assuming they arose) and if so, what lead you to reject un-belief. I'm trying to understand the reason you believe as you do.

Do I ask an impossible question?

[Jnyusa]

God as a person, and specifically a man, sitting in a place called heaven, looking down on us?

No, I don't believe in that. And I can't formulate an alternative notion that would be comparable in any way. But I believe that what we are experiencing when we talk about 'God,' however we talk about it, is real.

Jn

[Primula Baggins]

Not an impossible question at all. I almost always question the existence of God, and my faith has never been rock solid—since I was a child, anyway. The problem is that there are no ways that would work to make me believe simply and completely that God exists. God is not going to appear in the sky above my house and explain everything to me. God is not going to do miracles for my convenience. God didn't make my cancer disappear overnight. Life is still hard and uncertain.

But as I see it, certainty is not faith. Faith is seeking God's will through prayer and reading the Bible and talking to other Christians; it's a path, and a difficult one. The mind and the heart rebel sometimes. Yet at other times, I do feel certainty; I feel loved, and I sense the presence of God.

And whether or not I sense this in a given moment, I know I am a better and happier person for at least trying to follow Christ.

[Impenitent]

I committed an oops.

[Cerin]

I hope I will not bring any undue awkwardness to the conversation because of the recent problems I've been having with the forum.

I've decided that the best way for me to deal with the forum is simply not to think of it as 'safe' from my perspective (doing so seems to create an expectation which, though not consciously arrived at, is off the mark), but to just focus on making sure that I don't compromise the feeling of safety for others. vison used a phrase in another conversation that really struck me: she said, 'a topic not involving my heart'. And I thought, that's it. When we discuss our beliefs, it involves our heart. And so I think I will hold before me the idea that in this forum, people are baring their hearts to one another.

Sass, I also thought about becoming a nun. It was just before my twenties, and I spoke to one of the church nuns about it. She forwarded my name to another nun who wrote a letter to me. I don't remember a single thing about that letter. The thought of giving up my life for God scared me so much, I never even acknowledged the letter or thought about the matter again.

[Sassafras]

Impish I'm sorry you felt it necessary to delete your post. It was quite wonderful ... and very iluminating ... and it was exactly the sort of response I was hoping for.

I wont comment about any of the specifics since you did erase it ... but while I was reading ... I was thinking what richness your bring to your faith now.


Dear Cerin, I think that, yes. People are baring their hearts to one another in this forum. I hope you will allow yourself to continue to share with me, with us, in this thread.

I was deeply infatuated with the mysticism of the Catholic church for a while ... but I had had a very tulmultuous and unhappy childhood and I was seeking escape ... and peace ... and I was given to melodrama at the time.

And then I discovered boys ... so all of my mysticism fell by the wayside. Teenage hormones are positively overwhelming!

[Primula Baggins]

Imp, I read your post too and was moved by it. I agree with what Sass said.

[Cerin]

Imp, I'd like you to know that I also read your post. I thought it was wonderful and I felt really honored to learn so much about your history. But of course, I won't refer to it again if you feel now that you would rather you had not shared that information.

If deleting had anything to do with me coming into the thread, I will be happy to exit the thread. I can understand why people might be uncomfortable posting with me after the recent events, and I don't have any trouble with that at all. I don't want to ruin this wonderful opportunity for you or for anyone else.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Darn it, now I wish that I had seen Imp's post.

[Impenitent]

Well, now I feel like an idiot.

It wouldn't feel right to put it back here, after attracting all that attention to its removal, but it can be read here

I really don't do it for the attention. Truly. Put it down to emotional immaturity and insecurity.

[vison]

Thank you, Impenitent.

[Impenitent]

I'm not sure for what I am being thanked - but as I'm not one to look a gift horse in the mouth.... thank you Vison.

[vison]

I'm not sure for what I am being thanked - but as I'm not one to look a gift horse in the mouth.... thank you Vison.

Oh, for pete's sake!

I read your "deleted" post, that's what I was thanking you for. It was lovely and I thank you again for sharing it with us.

[JewelSong]

Fantastic "deleted" post, Imp.

Thank you for sharing it.

[truehobbit]

What I'm wondering about is ... how you faced questions of doubt

I do know that I have examined and re-examined the arguments for God ... and, intuitively, for me, they have come up lacking

.

I think for me the answer to the above is contained in the quote below: what I have examined are the arguments against God - and found them lacking.


(Sorry, can't say more yet, because Sassy's second post is as far as I've read - just wanted to answer that quickly as it occurred to me. )