The source of your personal morality
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The source of your personal morality
I did a silly little quiz earlier today, but one of the questions intrigued me:
Where does your personal morality come from?
a. Religion
b. your parents
c. society/culture
d. your personal life experience
I realised that, while my reflex was to answer that I was influenced mostly by religion (or my religious heritage and explorations, actually) and my parents, in the end my moral perspective rests on my personal life experience. On what I've read, on the conversations I've had with others, on what I've seen and felt during my journey through life, as a result of living with my husband for almost 25 years, of having borne children...all of these things have come together to create my moral position in the world. More so than my parents.
I thought I'd pose it as a contemplative discussion.
Where does your personal morality come from?
a. Religion
b. your parents
c. society/culture
d. your personal life experience
I realised that, while my reflex was to answer that I was influenced mostly by religion (or my religious heritage and explorations, actually) and my parents, in the end my moral perspective rests on my personal life experience. On what I've read, on the conversations I've had with others, on what I've seen and felt during my journey through life, as a result of living with my husband for almost 25 years, of having borne children...all of these things have come together to create my moral position in the world. More so than my parents.
I thought I'd pose it as a contemplative discussion.
Mornings wouldn't suck so badly if they came later in the day.
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all of the above.
I have no idea as to percentages from each.
I have no idea as to percentages from each.
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers
- Voronwë the Faithful
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So what House are you in? I'm a Ravenpuff, which sounds so ridiculous, I didn't post it
I have to agree that life experience shapes morality. 'Conviction' is something very personal, and ultimately we each have an individual conscience. We don't rely strictly on what our parents or our religion taught us - we take that and make it our own.
That being said, I do tend to compare my personal benchmarks to my religious beliefs....and make adjustments on the former, in case of a discrepency. So, I ultimately went with a, even though I didn't mean it to be exclusive.
I have to agree that life experience shapes morality. 'Conviction' is something very personal, and ultimately we each have an individual conscience. We don't rely strictly on what our parents or our religion taught us - we take that and make it our own.
That being said, I do tend to compare my personal benchmarks to my religious beliefs....and make adjustments on the former, in case of a discrepency. So, I ultimately went with a, even though I didn't mean it to be exclusive.
My brain.
(IE. many years of (ongoing) thought and reasoning.)
(IE. many years of (ongoing) thought and reasoning.)
Last edited by yovargas on Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
I wanna love somebody but I don't know how
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists
I'd have to say all of those.
If I picked religion, I would narrow that down to the Bible as the primary source.
It is interesting to me that my life experience has changed my views on certain things that I used to view one way (in the Bible).
Of course my parents shaped my overall morality. Part of becoming an adult, though, is deciding if you accept or reject their teachings.
Perhaps society/culture is the lowest on my totem pole. It matters, of course, but only to a point.
Lali
If I picked religion, I would narrow that down to the Bible as the primary source.
It is interesting to me that my life experience has changed my views on certain things that I used to view one way (in the Bible).
Of course my parents shaped my overall morality. Part of becoming an adult, though, is deciding if you accept or reject their teachings.
Perhaps society/culture is the lowest on my totem pole. It matters, of course, but only to a point.
Lali
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I took the same quiz, and the answer was my parents.
My parents were Christian and church-goers, so I assume some of their own morality came from the Bible. But I was always taught to use the brain God gave me over any Biblical pronouncements that didn't make sense or seemed archaic.
My life experience has shaped my personal morality as well, but most of it has remained consistent with what my parents taught me, which boiled down to honesty, kindness and steadfast love above all else.
Oh, and I was a Griffyndor, through and through!
My parents were Christian and church-goers, so I assume some of their own morality came from the Bible. But I was always taught to use the brain God gave me over any Biblical pronouncements that didn't make sense or seemed archaic.
My life experience has shaped my personal morality as well, but most of it has remained consistent with what my parents taught me, which boiled down to honesty, kindness and steadfast love above all else.
Oh, and I was a Griffyndor, through and through!
"Live! Live! Live! Life is a banquet, and most poor suckers are starving to death!" - Auntie Mame
In order of priority:
a. Religion. A lot of my personal morality is based on what I understand of Biblical teachings and indeed an overall Biblical worldview.
b. your parents. My parents were (and are) committed Christians. They were good role models for showing how one can have profound convictions but also have respect and tolerance for other people's viewpoints.
d. your personal life experience. On the same level as b. One's personal life experience is the crucible in which one's faith and beliefs get tested.
c. society/culture. Inevitably this comes into play. How could it not? It's lowest on my list but sure, it has an impact.
a. Religion. A lot of my personal morality is based on what I understand of Biblical teachings and indeed an overall Biblical worldview.
b. your parents. My parents were (and are) committed Christians. They were good role models for showing how one can have profound convictions but also have respect and tolerance for other people's viewpoints.
d. your personal life experience. On the same level as b. One's personal life experience is the crucible in which one's faith and beliefs get tested.
c. society/culture. Inevitably this comes into play. How could it not? It's lowest on my list but sure, it has an impact.
Aw, Mith, you should have done! Ravenpuff sounds adorable.MithLuin wrote:So what House are you in? I'm a Ravenpuff, which sounds so ridiculous, I didn't post it
Heh, that doesn't surprise me.JewelSong wrote:Oh, and I was a Griffyndor, through and through!
"Frodo undertook his quest out of love - to save the world he knew from disaster at his own expense, if he could ... "
Letter no. 246, The Collected Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien
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Letter no. 246, The Collected Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien
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- Voronwë the Faithful
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Alatar wrote:V, that pretty much elevates e) to a) which is not necessarily a good thing.
Not necessarily, Al, unless you are claiming that religion is the only possible answer to the question. Actually, e) is really just a subset of c).
It's hard to say how much Tolkien's work (not just LOTR) reflected my own definitely philosophy, and how much it directly influenced it.Do you really believe you would have a different moral approach to life had you not read LotR? I love the book as much as most, but I don't live my life by it.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
My parents put in the broad outlines when I was little, mostly very black and white: it's bad to hit your sister, it's bad to be lazy, it's good to do the dishes right away.
For really thinking about the big questions, though, the answer is clearly "the books I've read."
I read the Oz books voraciously as a kid and would ask myself all sorts of questions about utopias (and even what you might call "fairy-based socialism") as a result:
Could there really be a fairyland where you didn't need money and yet people didn't feel trapped? What does it mean to be eating turkey legs in a world without obvious slaughterhouses -- does it feel better when the meat you eat is grown on trees?
A Wrinkle in Time: How many sacrifices can our younger brothers and sisters demand from us? Is love really the magic answer that tyranny can't understand?
Narnia: Why are Eustace's parents ridiculed for being pacifist vegetarians? What is faith? Why is Puddleglum's preference for belief in a good lie (if, as the bad witch is telling him, his memory of life above ground is a delusion) so moving and convincing? How many scratches would a lion have to to give me to balance the harm I've done to others so far in my life?
Tolkien: (but you guys can do this one in your sleep!) Would I have the courage to do something very, very hard that needed doing?
OK, on and on and on . . . . And I talked about all these books with my friends, too. Yes, definitely, books is me.
For really thinking about the big questions, though, the answer is clearly "the books I've read."
I read the Oz books voraciously as a kid and would ask myself all sorts of questions about utopias (and even what you might call "fairy-based socialism") as a result:
Could there really be a fairyland where you didn't need money and yet people didn't feel trapped? What does it mean to be eating turkey legs in a world without obvious slaughterhouses -- does it feel better when the meat you eat is grown on trees?
A Wrinkle in Time: How many sacrifices can our younger brothers and sisters demand from us? Is love really the magic answer that tyranny can't understand?
Narnia: Why are Eustace's parents ridiculed for being pacifist vegetarians? What is faith? Why is Puddleglum's preference for belief in a good lie (if, as the bad witch is telling him, his memory of life above ground is a delusion) so moving and convincing? How many scratches would a lion have to to give me to balance the harm I've done to others so far in my life?
Tolkien: (but you guys can do this one in your sleep!) Would I have the courage to do something very, very hard that needed doing?
OK, on and on and on . . . . And I talked about all these books with my friends, too. Yes, definitely, books is me.
Very interesting.
Teremia (and others) bring up a good point. Books definitely shaped the way I thought about the world. Rather, they still do shape the way I think about the world!
I guess my rankings would be like Di's. Faith/religion first, parents and life experience (which includes books, imo), tied for second, and culture/society third. I couldn't exclude any of those.
Lali
Teremia (and others) bring up a good point. Books definitely shaped the way I thought about the world. Rather, they still do shape the way I think about the world!
I guess my rankings would be like Di's. Faith/religion first, parents and life experience (which includes books, imo), tied for second, and culture/society third. I couldn't exclude any of those.
Lali
Good old Lewis. He does let his prejudices show, doesn't he?Teremia wrote:Narnia: Why are Eustace's parents ridiculed for being pacifist vegetarians? books is me.
I do really love that speech of Puddleglum's in The Silver Chair.
"Frodo undertook his quest out of love - to save the world he knew from disaster at his own expense, if he could ... "
Letter no. 246, The Collected Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien
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Letter no. 246, The Collected Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien
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I think (not to speak for anyone else) that books don't shape our morality, but rather highlight our own morality. The books that speak to us are the ones that reflect our own innate morality. We remember the books that resonated with us.
Our parents tought us not in what rules they made, but as our primary examples of how people should behave. Even if our parents behaved badly, we would learn from that, either by imitating or by reflecting their behavior. In fact, I think "C" pretty much covers all the options.
Aren't the books we read, our parents, our society and our religion a major part of our life experience?
Our parents tought us not in what rules they made, but as our primary examples of how people should behave. Even if our parents behaved badly, we would learn from that, either by imitating or by reflecting their behavior. In fact, I think "C" pretty much covers all the options.
Aren't the books we read, our parents, our society and our religion a major part of our life experience?
The Vinyamars on Stage! This time at Bag End
There have been a few books that definitely made me think HARD about my "moral" views. I have to admit, though, that LOTR wasn't one of them. But I guess - and it's only a guess - it's because I was an adult when I first read it. However, the book still affected me in the sense that I had become the kind of person who would admire Frodo and Sam, and Aragorn, too, for that matter. LOTR more or less "suited" the beliefs and convictions I had already formed and the world it was set in seemed "real" and acceptable in every way. And it appealed enormously to my love of language and the art of writing, the moral lessons or philosophy were so beautifully expressed in an "implicit" rather than "overt" way. There are many grand contradictions in the story, though, and Tolkien's moral universe is not (IMHO) a seamless whole. Rather like real life, eh?
I think "c" is actually the sum of "a", "b" and "d", not at all a separate influence.
Religion influenced my life in a peripheral way, since I was brought up in a "Christian" country - in other words, the commonly understood and generally accepted tenets of Christianity were supposedly the main props of the "system" we lived under. That is debatable, but it was the view at the time.
No man is an island, as the saying goes. There are people brought up "off the grid", but they are in the minority. The larger culture seeps in, whether we will or nill.
I think "c" is actually the sum of "a", "b" and "d", not at all a separate influence.
Religion influenced my life in a peripheral way, since I was brought up in a "Christian" country - in other words, the commonly understood and generally accepted tenets of Christianity were supposedly the main props of the "system" we lived under. That is debatable, but it was the view at the time.
No man is an island, as the saying goes. There are people brought up "off the grid", but they are in the minority. The larger culture seeps in, whether we will or nill.
Dig deeper.
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from Alatar
So your point about learning from them, even learning what not to do, rang very true with me.
Those comments really got the old memory banks firing up. My folks were very simple working class people who were decent folks. But I grew up in the Fifties and early Sixties watching TV programs like "Father Knows Best" and "Make Room for Daddy" with those white collar dads who actually sat down and talked to their kids. They sat around a dinner table in a dining room and talked about stuff while eating. At night they would tuck their kids into bed and tell them they loved them. As a blue collar working class kid eating in a cramped kitchen with emotionally closed off parents, those pictures were as much a fantasy world as Mordor of Gondor would become.Our parents tought us not in what rules they made, but as our primary examples of how people should behave. Even if our parents behaved badly, we would learn from that, either by imitating or by reflecting their behavior. In fact, I think "C" pretty much covers all the options.
So your point about learning from them, even learning what not to do, rang very true with me.
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers
Well, I think it's all of the above, really, which adds up to D. It all started with my parents, not just the rules that they set, but much more so the example that they set. My Dad's word is gold. In the uncertain times, men who worked for him could not trust any contract or promise, but they went to work on his word that they would be paid. My Mom has an uncanny ability to connect to people and show sincere concern for their lives. I don't have that quality, but I've learned from watching her.
I came to religion when I was almost out of my teens. Today, the ethics of Reform Judaism are my reference for moral dilemmas, but it is not a blind adherence. An important part of those ethics is the ability to say, "Wait, that's just wrong!" even in the face of the Word of God (see Abraham, Moses, others).
Society, of course, both of them. But society shaped my ethics as much in rejection of its constraints as in compliance with them.
And books. Definitely books. That is why I insist that Lufu reads fantasy, and why I am so glad he dived into Tolkien and Pratchett - for the shiny, unbending ethics of the heroes. That's where we find our ideals, that's where we learn that we are not helpless in the face of the Big Evil.
And there's my own brain, and heart, and conscience that process and filter all of that. My ethics mature with me.
I came to religion when I was almost out of my teens. Today, the ethics of Reform Judaism are my reference for moral dilemmas, but it is not a blind adherence. An important part of those ethics is the ability to say, "Wait, that's just wrong!" even in the face of the Word of God (see Abraham, Moses, others).
Society, of course, both of them. But society shaped my ethics as much in rejection of its constraints as in compliance with them.
And books. Definitely books. That is why I insist that Lufu reads fantasy, and why I am so glad he dived into Tolkien and Pratchett - for the shiny, unbending ethics of the heroes. That's where we find our ideals, that's where we learn that we are not helpless in the face of the Big Evil.
And there's my own brain, and heart, and conscience that process and filter all of that. My ethics mature with me.
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Only if one never changes their mind about anything or learns new things. A book (or, I'd argue, any artform) can change you and teach you things you likely wouldn't have seen on your own. Most important for me were Ayn Rand's novels The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged. They made a dramatic change on how I viewed my morality. (Whether or not those changes were for the good I'll leave up to ya'll to decide. ) There have also been some important movies in that regard.Al wrote: I think (not to speak for anyone else) that books don't shape our morality, but rather highlight our own morality.
And on a side note, the idea of LOTR being a major moral work is odd to me. I love 'em and all but their impact on my morality or worldview wasn't any greater than your average novel.
I wanna love somebody but I don't know how
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists