Hell

Post by **yovargas** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 2:34 am

I am interested in hearing the views of the Christians in the audience on the topic of hell, specially (though not limited too) those who believe in the "traditional" view of hell as a literal place of eternal burning and suffering. What are your beliefs on the matter? How do those beliefs impact your spiritual views? Is there any conflict between this belief and the view of God as a God of forgiveness and infinite mercy?

It probably doesn't need to be said for this group, but I'd really like this to not be about criticisms of the belief (as I used to do once upon a time in Manwë) but more about exploring other's perspectives of God and seeking a greater, mutual understanding.

So...hell?

Post by **Cerin** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:10 am

I don't like to think about hell, but it's logical, if you accept the idea that we and the angels are eternal beings, that we all have to spend eternity somewhere. If we aren't made perfect and therefore can't spend eternity in God's presence, then logically, the only other place is outside of God's presence, which would be hell. God made a way for humans to be redeemed, but not, as I understand it, for the rebellious angels to be redeemed, so they would be the ones spending eternity in hell (presuming for the moment that God makes a way for all human beings to receive salvation).

Post by **JewelSong** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 1:41 pm

I believe heaven and hell are of our own making.

A fable my mother told me when I was quite young:

A person dies and is taken to the after life. There is a long banquet table, filled with the most delicious foods you can imagine and people are seated on either side. Yet the people are unhappy - yelling at each other and crying. No one is eating - because they are all attached to the backs of their chairs and their arms have been strapped straight - they cannot bend down to reach the food or bend their arms to get the food to their mouths. They will spend eternity that way - with the delicious food tantalizingly out of reach.

"This is hell," the person is told. "Now I will show you heaven."

The person is led into another room. It looks just like the first - the long table, the delicious food and the people sitting at either side. And these people are also strapped to the backs of the chairs and their arms are bound straight. But these people are not unhappy; they are laughing and joking and having a wonderful time. And they are eating the delicious food...by reaching across the table and feeding each other.

I do not believe that heaven and hell are places - rather, they are states of being. And we create them. Jesus said, "The Kingdom of Heaven is upon you now." And I think this is what he meant.

Post by **Cerin** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:58 pm

So Jewel, are you saying you believe in an afterlife, and that everyone will be in the same 'place', but that some will be happy there and some will be unhappy?

Post by **yovargas** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:31 pm

Cerin, I take it from your post that you don't believe in the 'fire and brimstone' take on hell?

God made a way for humans to be redeemed, but not, as I understand it, for the rebellious angels to be redeemed, so they would be the ones spending eternity in hell.

Are you saying that you believe humans can escape hell by God's redemption? Why wouldn't angels be able to receive the same mercy?

Post by **halplm** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:13 pm

I personally believe Hell is a place of eternal torment that is inescapable. Now, "eternal" is a concept in time, and I'm not sure time will exist in the afterlife in any way that we can conceive of.... but it also implies the inescapable bit.

For people to have free will, there must be a path for them to choose that leads to somethign other than God. That something is Hell. It is not a punishment for our choices... it is the result of our choices.

As for what it's like, or what the torment will be... I haven't a clue... It's described as a place of fire and pain... but these are human concepts which probably cannot even close to accurately describe what it is.

If there is an afterlife, with or without God... then those are the only two choices. To truly have free will... that choice must be there. If we all end up in the same place, just by different paths... in the end... we have no free will.

Post by **Cerin** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:59 pm

yovargas wrote:Cerin, I take it from your post that you don't believe in the 'fire and brimstone' take on hell?

Well, yes, I guess I do, if you consider the horror a place would be after every aspect of God's presence (everything good) were removed.

Are you saying that you believe humans can escape hell by God's redemption? Why wouldn't angels be able to receive the same mercy?

Angels are a different order of being than humans. The Bible says that the angels look upon God's plan of salvation for Man and marvel at the love He has shown us. We are destined to share in God's very nature by becoming His children through Christ. This is not the destiny of the angels.

This is not to say there couldn't be another kind of mechanism of redemption for the angels, but it doesn't make sense to me that it would be a salvation involving the sacrifice of God as a human (since angels aren't human) or that it would involve receiving that gift on the basis of faith, since the angels have been in the physical presence of God. However, the Bible doesn't speak of this (a redemption for the angels) as far as I know, and I believe there is a verse that says hell was created for the devil and his angels.

Post by **yovargas** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:31 pm

Jesus said, "The Kingdom of Heaven is upon you now."

Do you know the verse?

Cerin & hal, could you address this question from the first post:

Is there any conflict between this belief and the view of God as a God of forgiveness and infinite mercy?

Do you not believe hell is necessarily eternal for us, Cerin?

Post by **Pearly Di** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:33 pm

Oh, man. *groans*

If I could lose this doctrine from my religion, believe me, I would. But I can't. Scripture doesn't allow me to. Some of the most frightening words about hell in Scripture come from Jesus Himself.

I do believe that heaven and hell are real places, because I believe humans were created originally to live forever. Death now separates us from what lies beyond. We're all on our way to being, in CS Lewis's memorable phrase, 'immortal horrors or everlasting splendours'. I don't believe that heaven is 'up there' or that hell is 'down below'. It's symbolic language for real dimensions ... I would surmise.

Hal is right. I'd love to be a universalist but if you believe in universalism you really can't believe in free will.

And I do believe that God gives human beings the dignity and freedom to choose Him ... or not.

And besides: I couldn't be a universalist because something in me really baulks at the idea of an unrepentant Hitler sharing the same paradise as the millions of people he murdered. Surely any concept of cosmic justice (if one believes in an afterlife) precludes such a notion.

Don't most faiths have a concept of cosmic justice? Take karma ... if you do something bad, it rebounds on you. Other religions say we are judged by our good and bad deeds. I can't think of a faith system that doesn't have some kind of judgement attached to it, somehow, even if it's a very liberal concept.

Some people who don't believe in God are quick to rage at Him when disasters strike. But what are they raging at? The injustice and unfairness of the universe? If you don't believe in a God, what's there to be angry about? If things are so random, why do we CARE so much?

I know that many people find the doctrine of hell barbaric and offensive - and I understand perfectly well why they do, I wrestle with the notion myself.

All I can do is point out what classical mainstream Christianity teaches: all of us, without exception, are sinners. All of us, without exception, have fallen short of the glory of God. None of us can plead our righteousness before Him. So He has made a way for lost humanity back to Himself through the sacrificial and reconciling work of Christ on the cross. "... at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5.6-8 (NIV)

The one 'good' thing I can find to say about hell is that I do believe that at the end of all time God will banish evil, finally and forever, from His universe.

This is a brave topic to tackle, Yov.

You're braver than many Christians I know.

Including me.

Hell is not a fashionable topic these days. Too controversial and upsetting.

People would rather concentrate on God's love, and that of course is a very good thing.

But ... Christianity is a robust faith, and ... well, this is part of the kit and kaboodle of Christian doctrine.

Anyhow, you're a brave man.

Gotta run. No time for more right now.

Post by **Cerin** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:50 pm

yovargas wrote:Cerin & hal, could you address this question from the first post:

Is there any conflict between this belief and the view of God as a God of forgiveness and infinite mercy?

I don't see a conflict. God offers everyone forgiveness and infinite mercy; we still have to choose to avail ourselves of it.

Do you not believe hell is necessarily eternal for us, Cerin?

I believe our final disposition after the judgment will be eternal, but my hope is that somehow, everyone -- perhaps in those mysterious last moments of life, will choose to receive the salvation that God offers.

Post by **Whistler** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:05 pm

I was dreading my obligatory entrance into this discussion, but now I read that Pearl has summed up my feelings pretty well and thereby saved me a world of hair-pulling.

This is unquestionably the most difficult aspect of the Christian faith, but as Christ mentioned Hell more than any other topic, and as his death was meant to provide us with the only means of escaping it, there is simply no way of brushing it aside for the sake making other people (and ourselves) more comfortable.

Post by **Primula Baggins** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:06 pm

Cerin wrote:
Do you not believe hell is necessarily eternal for us, Cerin?
I believe our final disposition after the judgment will be eternal, but my hope is that somehow, everyone -- perhaps in those mysterious last moments of life, will choose to receive the salvation that God offers.

This is my hope as well, although I have no doubt I could be completely beaten down with Scripture.

It's just—believing in a loving and infinitely merciful God, I must (I can't help it) also believe that there is no human being for whom there is no hope. Even though that introduces the Hitler problem. But just because we can't forgive, does that mean God cannot? Or that Hitler's victims—in the presence of God, and understanding and rejoicing in God's mercy far better than we can—would themselves be unable to forgive their destroyer?

Post by **yovargas** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:15 pm

Cerin wrote:I don't see a conflict. God offers everyone forgiveness and infinite mercy; we still have to choose to avail ourselves of it. ... I believe our final disposition after the judgment will be eternal

The (apparent?) conflict is in the finality of the judgemnent. Once the judgement is made, the forgiveness goes from infinite to nonexistant.

Post by **halplm** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:31 pm

yovargas wrote: Cerin & hal, could you address this question from the first post:
Is there any conflict between this belief and the view of God as a God of forgiveness and infinite mercy?

Forgiveness is what God offers us as long as we ask for it. If you do not ask for it, however, why would you expect to get it?

Well, infinite mercy might be the answer to that question. However mercy can be offered without question and in an "infinite" way (how exactly that's defined is anyone's guess), but the fact that it's offered, does not mean it is universally accepted.

Take someone like Hitler, for instance. Most people, could never find it in their hearts to forgive someone who did the unspeakable things he did. However, God would offer forgiveness for the whole of it. Every sin wiped clean. To me, the fact that this is offered to ANYONE, is "infinite mercy."

But it is still our choice to ask for that forgiveness, or spurn it. Choose to live clean in God's eyes, or choose a life disregarding the failures in ourselves.

To us, there are degrees of sin and evil... a white lie here and there is nothing, where a mass muderer shouldn't even get a chance at Heaven. To God, it is black and white. Those who sin, cannot be with him in heaven (however heaven works), and those who are cleansed of their sin through Jesus's sacrifice, can be with him, no matter WHAT sins they have commited.

It's infinite mercy and total forgiveness... for those that ask. It's hell, for those that do not.

Post by **Cerin** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:32 pm

The (apparent?) conflict is in the finality of the judgemnent. Once the judgement is made, the forgiveness goes from infinite to nonexistant.

The forgiveness is not nonexistent, it is eternal, for those who choose to accept it. It is 'non-existent' for those who choose to reject it, not because it was not available to them, but because they rejected it.

What you seem to be getting at is that a final judgment is not consistent with the idea of forgiveness, but again, in the absense of some final decision there really is no choice, and if no real choice, then no exercise of free will, no consequence of sin, and no entering into the next stage of eternity.

Post by **Pearly Di** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:36 pm

Primula_Baggins wrote:It's just—believing in a loving and infinitely merciful God, I must (I can't help it) also believe that there is no human being for whom there is no hope.

I don't think that believing in hell precludes that, Prim. Nobody is beyond hope if the Father calls them in love.

And I don't believe there is any sin that God cannot forgive. The cross alone proves that. 'Father, forgive them, for they don't know what they're doing.' The most heinous sins can be forgiven by God ...

... IF we ask for His forgiveness.

The theological problem I'm raising about Hitler is the very real possibility (and probability) that he never repented.

It's a tricky one. Because of course it's easy to demonise Hitler. All of us, whatever our beliefs, seize on Hitler and say, "well, if there was a hell, that bastard should be there for all eternity." An understandable sentiment. But the much more difficult thing for us to grasp is that Hitler was not a monster. He was a rational man who chose to do monstrous things.

What do we do with that? What does GOD do with that? Was Hitler worse than Stalin (who also murdered millions?) Worse than Saddam Hussein? How do we quantify these things? How can we compare one atrocity with one another, one sin with another? How can WE judge human souls? How could WE possibly determine who should go to hell?

It's not our call. I leave such judgement to Almighty God. I wouldn't dare to go there.

I take comfort from the thief on the cross. "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." "Today you shall be with me in paradise."

That guy didn't have any time to complete a statement of faith which assured God that he was doctrinally sound. He was dying a horrible death. He simply asked Jesus to remember him.

Jesus did.

Post by **Teremia** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:02 pm

All we need of "hell" is available right now, right here on earth. Cruelty of that kind is a human talent, not a divine one. I think it is rather awful for us to project such a thing on the Light.

The stories we tell of heaven and hell are human stories. They fall apart logically when one pokes at them. (Half a family happily reuniting in heaven while the other half burns elsewhere? All the decent angels would go on strike. It is the worst moment in the Narnia books, the expulsion of Susan from heaven and her siblings' decision to ignore that lack in their own bliss. That is HUMAN-sized heartlessness.)

Sometimes I catch the faintest sense of the that-of-God-in-every-one, of the Light at work. It has nothing whatsoever to do with "hell." (And I guess that disqualifies me once again from being a Buddhist, not being able to experience with equanimitous joy all things, or see "bad" and "good" as the same.)

I really do think religions are human creations, whatever the nature of that which is truly sacred. Really, there's enough cruelty on earth. Why forecast more in some other world or beyond the ends of time? Let's hope for love and forgiveness instead, here and elsewhere.

Post by **halplm** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:05 pm

yovargas wrote:
Cerin wrote:I don't see a conflict. God offers everyone forgiveness and infinite mercy; we still have to choose to avail ourselves of it. ... I believe our final disposition after the judgment will be eternal
The (apparent?) conflict is in the finality of the judgemnent. Once the judgement is made, the forgiveness goes from infinite to nonexistant.

I agree with what Cerin said (who here never thought they'd see me say that?

), but another aspect that may be relevant to the apparent conflict, is that we may have to ignore the concept of linear time.

I agree, there would seem to be a conflict if time is going by, and once you're in hell, from that point forward, you no longer have access to God's forgiveness. However, there's nothing to say time exists outside of here and now. There's nothing to say outside of this existance, time is even observable.

To us, it seems obvious... you're not a Christian... until some point if you decide to be one... and then you are. That fits with how we view the world and our existance. To God, however, it is more of all of humanity, divided into two groups... those that choose forgiveness... and those that don't... WHEN they choose that, is of no real consequence... if it's when they're 5 in sunday school, or 95 on their deathbed...

therefore Hell, is not some place you "go to" in the future... it's the place you choose to be outside of this existence.

Post by **halplm** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:11 pm

Teremia wrote:All we need of "hell" is available right now, right here on earth. Cruelty of that kind is a human talent, not a divine one. I think it is rather awful for us to project such a thing on the Light.

The stories we tell of heaven and hell are human stories. They fall apart logically when one pokes at them. (Half a family happily reuniting in heaven while the other half burns elsewhere? All the decent angels would go on strike. It is the worst moment in the Narnia books, the expulsion of Susan from heaven and her siblings' decision to ignore that lack in their own bliss. That is HUMAN-sized heartlessness.)

Sometimes I catch the faintest sense of the that-of-God-in-every-one, of the Light at work. It has nothing whatsoever to do with "hell." (And I guess that disqualifies me once again from being a Buddhist, not being able to experience with equanimitous joy all things, or see "bad" and "good" as the same.)

I really do think religions are human creations, whatever the nature of that which is truly sacred. Really, there's enough cruelty on earth. Why forecast more in some other world or beyond the ends of time? Let's hope for love and forgiveness instead, here and elsewhere.

I have different issues with Susan not being in "heaven" although if I remember correctly, she wasn't dead yet, so why would she be there anyway?

But the idea of separation and thus pain if you go to heaven and others go to hell, is one that is not logical. In heaven there is no pain (a concept we can't really fathom either), so why would there be pain in someone's absence?

It's fairly simple to recognize that if people make other choices than those that lead to heaven, it is still THEIR choices. Would you rather take their choices away to see them in heaven?

Post by **yovargas** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:17 pm

WHEN they choose that, is of no real consequence... if it's when they're 5 in sunday school, or 95 on their deathbed...

Or a billion and two in their lake of fire?