Losing my Religion

[Mrs. Frodo Baggins]

OK, so that is an entirely cliche title from a great REM song...it fits so deal with it! Most everyone on here knows that I am (was?) a Christian fundie...one of the most conservative people on the board. Now I am starting to have some serious doubts about Christianity. The one thing that sparked it off was God telling the Isralites to kill the women and children after conquering some army or another (this happens more than once and I can look it up for anyone who is interested in chapter and verse). In fact a lot (not all because there is good stuff too) of the Old Testament is barbaric. When I started reading the Bible I started with the New Testament and thought that was something I wanted to pattern my life after. I can tell that it was written in a more civilized age.

Looking from the outside I can see that the Bible was written to explain things to a primitive people who didn't understand the world scientifically. Natural disasters and diseases were considered God's curses because weather, the earth and germs weren't understood back then. I have also always had a hard time with how Christians have treated homosexuals. Personally, I could care less whether someone was straight or gay. It never has bothered me.

There are other things that bother me too, but I will discuss them more in depth later since I don't have a lot of time right now. I still don't know what to think because I do believe there has to be some sort of moral absolute or how does a society figure out what is moral and what isn't. I can look at a culture that marries thirteen year old girls off to forty year old men and know that it is wrong, but what is the moral basis for that? Also I still believe abortion is wrong (especially late term abortion), what is the moral basis for that? Is the moral basis something like: Something is immoral when it hurts another person? I'm still figuring all of this out. I am also not sure that I am definitely saying that there is no God...I am still searching and wondering. If God really exists he should be able to stand up to my questioning. (I hope that last sentence made sense!)

Also just one more thing, Christianity says that God answers prayer, but that the answer could be "Yes, no, or wait.", but that is what happens in life whether or not one prays about a situation. I have prayed for years for God to make me a better mom, but I have gotten worse sinking under the opression of not being perfect nor able to raise perfect kids. I think I am going to cut them and me some slack for awhile and just try to be human for once, nothing more.

~Sid Baggins (More to come later and cross-posted at b77.)

[Pearly Di]

Sid, I'm an evangelical Xian - not a fundamentalist, as I have not interpreted Chapter 1 of Genesis literally for many years - who can identify a great deal with the things that trouble you. They are things that I wrestle with as well. It's good for our faith to be sharpened, as on iron.

Nonetheless ... my faith is based on the Jesus I meet in the Gospels and I would not exchange Him for anything.

I would like to address the whole problematic issue of the 'holy wars' in the OT but that needs a longer answer than I am able to give right now.

So, hopefully later.

I can tell that it was written in a more civilized age.

Actually, Sid, I don't think it was. There was plenty that was deeply 'uncivilized' about the age that Jesus and Paul lived in.

Not that our age doesn't have its own forms of barbarities. Not to mention dedadence.

I think I am going to cut them and me some slack for awhile and just try to be human for once, nothing more.

I very much doubt that God has a problem with that, Sid.

He is very gentle with bruised reeds.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Sid, in the end, your faith doesn't exist in any book, it exists in your heart, and your mind, and your soul.

[Whistler]

I doubt that you are losing your religion. I think you are seeking to come fully to terms with it, to understand those elements that confuse you so that you can embrace it as you wish.

I also am not a fundamentalist, but someone who (I hate these titles!) would probably be called an evangelical. I understand exactly how it is to try to live in today's post-Christian society. Don't feel that you are alone in your frustration.

I don't have time for an in-depth discussion at the moment, but I would like very much to discuss these questions further. And if there is anything so sensitive you'd rather not discuss it here, please feel free to send a PM at any time.

Your situation is quite natural and reveals only that you are a person with spiritual and intellectual integrity, not a mindless robot. Do not be discouraged!

[halplm]

I posted on B77, but I agree with VtF and Whistler.

[nerdanel]

Sid,

You already know my perspective, and it is one that has asked many of those same questions and answered them differently than I think you hope to do.

I want to suggest one thing, though. Moral absolutes make life simple. If you can look at a situation and say, "Yes, those people are acting morally" or "No, those people are acting immorally" according to a black-and-white set of principles and axioms, things are very clearcut, are they not? But clearcut is not always correct, and I think there are fewer moral absolutes in life that we might prefer.

The simplest absolute for many people (religious and non-religious) is, "Thou shalt not kill" - but how many of us can say we think that there are no circumstances whatsoever under which causing the death of another human being is unjustified? Almost all of us qualify that principle - for self-defense, to end wars that would otherwise kill far more people, some of us for the death penalty, and more. The waters become even more complicated when we consider life that is less incontrovertibly full-fledged human life; some people will say that an embryo is fully human life, and others will say that there is too yawning a gap between embryo and infant child to categorize them together. It would be easier if there was a simple, clear, morally absolute answer, to whether destruction of human embryos violates "Thou shalt not kill," isn't it? But people in good faith, and in good conscience, religious and non-religious alike, can come to differing, principled conclusions on these things.

If there is value in religion - and I think there is (as I've said, I would not be surprised if I end up converting to Judaism at some point), I think it derives not from providing clear-cut, simple, "This is 100% right and this is 100% wrong" answers to problems, but rather by providing illuminating principles that can help us to puzzle out the myriad shades of gray that lie between black and white. Not from saying, "Ok, we have all the moral absolutes figured out, and those other people who think they do but have different moral absolutes are wrong," but perhaps as a tool to draw out the potential inside of us for innate goodness (phrased agnostically) or what someone I know calls the "spark of God inside us" (loosely equivalent to the Holy Spirit).

**

BTW, Pearl, I think that when Sid wrote, "a more civilized age," she meant that the New Testament was from a more civilized time than the Hebrew Bible, which is, in many ways, a fair enough contention.

[Cerin]

Most everyone on here knows that I am (was?) a Christian fundie...one of the most conservative people on the board.

MFB, for how long were you a fundamentalist Christian? What made your Christianity 'fundamentalist' in your view?

From your post, it sounds as though you were a Christian without being familiar with the Old Testament. May I ask how that came about?

[WampusCat]

I came across Mrs. Frodo's post first on b77 and posted there. I would like to repost it here, with apologies, because I suspect the discussion will go deeper here and I wish to take part. I'd also like to add this: In my opinion, nobody can be a perfect mother. God knows I'm not. But raising children, like prayer, is not about results. It's about relationship.

---

Good for you, Sidonzo, for being willing to dig deep.

I was fortunate enough to be raised in a church where doubts and questions were expected and welcome. As my minister said, "If you haven't doubted it, you can't really believe it. You're just parroting what someone told you."

Faith is a struggle, and even when you think you've got the basics figured out, there's always more to explore. Easy, set beliefs can become an idol, and you know what God thinks of those!

Here's how I see the brutality of parts of the Old Testament. I offer it not to say you ought to think this but just so you can see how one person has come to terms with it. I believe the Bible is not only a record of God's dealings with humanity but a record of humanity's distorted views of God. Personally, I suspect that a lot of the "kill everybody" orders attributed to God were self-justification by people who felt that killing was the politically expedient way to control the situation. God's will was used as an excuse.

There's a powerful thread of love and mercy wound through the Old Testament. What that tells me is that God was trying to get through to us, trying to substitute our obsession with power/control with God's message of love. Hey, that struggle is ongoing, isn't it?

That doesn't mean the Old Testament is useless. Far from it! Look for God's love and faithfulness, and you will find it. Even in the more brutal parts, we can see our own shortcomings and our own attempts to make God responsible for them. In the person of Jesus, we see a new way of being human and a more true vision of God.

[truehobbit]

I haven't read the thread on b77, so I don't know how people replied there, maybe this has all been said already.

Like Whistler said, asking questions is a normal process in faith, I think.

The one thing that sparked it off was God telling the Isralites to kill the women and children after conquering some army or another (this happens more than once and I can look it up for anyone who is interested in chapter and verse). In fact a lot (not all because there is good stuff too) of the Old Testament is barbaric.

I have commented on the Old Testament in another thread, and I think it was a bit offensive to some, so I hope I'm not making it worse, being in this forum, but I think I should comment again.
Maybe this has to do with my being Catholic - after all, we are infamous for not considering "the word" to be so all-important - but I think in this case what I'm saying is borne out by historic research.

The thing is that, eventually, the Bible is just a book, or rather, a collection of texts. It's not God's own dictation or something. And, what's more, especially when it comes to the Old Testament, it's a big collection of texts from all sorts of backgrounds!
This collection of texts dates from a time when the view of the world was inextricably linked with mystery and religion - and when there was not a whole lot of writing around!
The Bible is the collected writings of an ancient people, and in those writings you have texts about everything that concerns a group of humans, such as historiography, wise sayings, medical advice, legal advice, prayer and meditative texts - all in one collection! And because in those ancient times everything was connected to religion, religion is present in all those texts!

It just results from a worldview in which these things are not seperated - it's hard for us today to understand, so I'll try a modern comparison.
You still find politicians (well, maybe mostly in the US ) these days arguing that some policy is "what God wants" - if our historiography wasn't seperated from religious thought and we were still thinking the way the people in the times of the Old Testament did, you'd probably read in some history books in a few years that God told the President to send troops to Iraq.
I hope the example isn't offensive - I'm just trying to explain how sentences such as the one that justly shocked you in the Bible got there in the first place!

However, I can understand having troubles to associate oneself with a religion that has such things anywhere in its texts.
That's why I'd agree with Pearl that the thing I as a Christian concentrate on is the love we receive from God as shown through Jesus in the gospels.

And that leads me to your point of wanting to be perfect.

but I have gotten worse sinking under the opression of not being perfect nor able to raise perfect kids. I think I am going to cut them and me some slack for awhile and just try to be human for once, nothing more.

I'm very sorry to hear that the idea of your failings oppresses you! But I think that your resolution to be human, all failings included, is just what God would ask of you!
This is probably not for me to tell you - it's something one needs to realise on one's own, I guess - but for me it has always been the crucial thing about my religion - and that is that it's ok for us to fail!
IMO, the whole idea of Christianity is to tell people that they don't have to be perfect! Almost all the deeds and words of Christ reassure us that it's ok to fail, as long as you try and as long as you realise and regret an error.
One of my favourite gospel moments is the naming of Simon as Peter: if Jesus can declare the person he knew was going to chicken out at the first test of facing public disapproval and deny knowing Him to be "the rock on which to build My Church" - then, I think, there's no need for you or me to fear a little erring along the way!

I'd like to comment on moral absolutes a bit, too , but this post is long enough already, and I'm probably stepping on enough toes as it is, so I'll save that for, hopefully, another post.

What that tells me is that God was trying to get through to us, trying to substitute our obsession with power/control with God's message of love. Hey, that struggle is ongoing, isn't it?


Edited to add:

That doesn't mean the Old Testament is useless. Far from it! Look for God's love and faithfulness, and you will find it. Even in the more brutal parts, we can see our own shortcomings and our own attempts to make God responsible for them. In the person of Jesus, we see a new way of being human and a more true vision of God.

That's beautifully said, wampus, very insightful, thanks!

[Cerin]

hobby, I don't think your previous comments on the Old Testament were offensive to anyone, and I would say that especially in this forum you should feel free to express whatever thoughts you have about your faith!

[yovargas]

hobby, I don't think your previous comments on the Old Testament were offensive to anyone, and I would say that especially in this forum you should feel free to express whatever thoughts you have about your faith!

Indeed. What's up with people on this board apologizing for engaging in interesting conversation!

[Impenitent]

Sid, I'm not a christian, and I'm a fence-sitter when it comes to faith, so I speak from a perspective that may be foreign to you.

It's okay to question. In fact, it's good, and appropriate, and necessary to question. If there is a God, then that God gave us a mind and a heart and the urge to use them both. It is essential to question if we are to fulfill the divine destiny given to us.

Just as long as you don't despair and throw it all out to start again, you will be okay. Actually, even if you do that, you will, in time, come to the place you're supposed to get to.

You are a thoughtful, spiritual person. Your explorations will not take you far wrong (and I know that's a very patronising thing to say. Forgive me - take it as the maternal instinct in me, not condescension).

[Nin]

Also posted on b77....

My dear Sidonzo,

I find it hard to answer you anything, for I am not a Christian in a classical sense and least of all a fundamentalist. But I have struggled with spiritual issues, with admitting to myself that I did not believe in God... and how to justify this belief and then still try to act morally and on what to base morality if not on religion. I still struggle. I struggle harder now, right now as I have in years.

And yet, maybe right now finally I have found some religion: I feel something in which I touch the divine nature of humanity. In the end, for me personnally, the conclusion is that there is nothing more divine on this earth than humanity, that it is upon us to show the divine essence which we are priviledged to bear.

Asking questions is the greatest gift we have, IMHO, and I think just by asking them, just by daring, you get closer to God or however you call that divine essence, that spiritual heart of a human being. In this, for me, you are on your way to God far more now by asking than in obeydiance or prayer.

Last, you are a wonderful mother. Look at me.... and how miserably I fail. And yet I have the hope to find if not forgiveness than comprehension, one day from my children. I hope to talk to you again, one day.

[vison]

Mrs.FrodoBaggins and Nin, both you Mothers, please, listen to me! Leaving aside your struggles with your faith, my dear friends, you MUST stop beating yourselves up over not being "perfect" mothers. Oh, you MUST.

Children are not empty little moulds that you, the perfect mother, can fill with perfection and so create perfect human beings! Children are people. They are born with talents and propensities, it is not ALL "nuture" with kids, it is "nature", too. Some kids are smart and sunny-natured, some are slow, some are difficult, and mostly, they are born that way.

How can you be a "failure" as a mother? You love your children and you do your best, you try to do your best, and what more can you do? So some days you yell. So some days you are tired and cranky and don't want to be bothered. So some days you could kiss and nibble each little toe of each little child in adoration, and things are so sweet and lovely and then, smack, one angel cuffs the other or grabs a toy and the war is on and you think, "O, it's all my fault, if I was a better mother they wouldn't fight and they wouldn't grab, they would be kind and loving to each other always!"

Well, you know what? That's not true.

Children need love. They need to know they are important to you and worthy of love. Then you do your best and hope for the best.

Let me tell you from bitter experience, dear friends, that even with all the love and caring in the world, things don't always turn out the way you hope and dream.

No mother is perfect, nor any child. Don't put unreasonable expectations on yourself, or them. Every night when you tuck them in, say, "Sweet dreams and Mummy loves you."

[Impenitent]

I love you, Vison.

[Primula Baggins]

That is solid wisdom from vison. But so hard to believe when you are the overwhelmed and guilt-ridden young mother.

But try!

[Frelga]

I absolutely agree with what vison said.

The Bible is the collected writings of an ancient people, and in those writings you have texts about everything that concerns a group of humans, such as historiography, wise sayings, medical advice, legal advice, prayer and meditative texts - all in one collection! And because in those ancient times everything was connected to religion, religion is present in all those texts!

TH, if that's the bit you thought might be offensive to, presumably, someone Jewish, you can cross me off your list of those theoretically offended. In fact, I pretty much agree with you. Of course, not being Christian, I see the Christian Scriptures in a similar light, but that's beside the point of this thread and I won't go there.

There is a view of Revelation as being non-verbal in nature. Rather, standing by Mount Zion in the Presence of God was such a profound experience that it ingrained in Hebrews an understanding of Divine (rather like seeing a baby for the first time can be a revelation of the meaning of love and responsibility). In that view, the Bible and the Biblical laws are an attempt by those people to find ways to live in the world-as-it-is in accordance with that understanding.

For all it's harshness, I find the Torah uplifting because the people there are NOT perfect. They do their best. Sometimes they fail spectacularly, sometimes they commit awful acts and pay for them, sometimes they despair. They are human, and God loves them as they are.

This is not to say that I think Sidonzo should convert to Judaism. I just think that God as I believe God to be does not require us to be perfect. It's enough if we try to do our best, with love and compassion.

[WampusCat]

For all it's harshness, I find the Torah uplifting because the people there are NOT perfect. They do their best. Sometimes they fail spectacularly, sometimes they commit awful acts and pay for them, sometimes they despair. They are human, and God loves them as they are. ...

I just think that God as I believe God to be does not require us to be perfect. It's enough if we try to do our best, with love and compassion.

This Christian agrees completely.

And this mother knows the guilt you're feeling. I'm not good at the practical skills of mothering (cooking, keeping a reasonably clean house, remembering to sign school papers, etc.). When my son developed bipolar disorder, I felt sure it was somehow my fault.

When he began meeting with a therapist, they met alone so that (I assumed) he could be upfront about the horrors his parents inflicted on him. She later told me that when she asked about problems with his parents, he insisted, "I've got the greatest parents in the world. They love me." I was floored. Maybe that really is what matters most.

[Nin]

Vison.... Thank you. You know it's hard when you're told every day that you are an immoral person ruining your children's life... and this brings me back to the question of morality. And religion. And Sidonzo.

[Padme]

Vison

VtF