The Spirit of Fire (The Fëanor discussion)

[MaidenOfTheShieldarm]

double post.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Here is the quote that I was thinking of, which comes from "Of the Sun and Moon" in the Silmarillion:

... they [the Valar] mourned not more for the death of the Trees than for the marring of Fëanor: of the works of Melkor one of the most evil. For Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in stgrength and in subtlety alike, of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and a bright flame was in him. The works of wonder for the glory of Arda that he might otherwise have wrought only Manwë might in some measure conceive.

[Sassafras]

I really don't have anything new to add to this excellent discussion, but I did want to mention my own beliefs concerning Fëanor.

Semprini wrote:

So had Fëanor a choice, with all the dangerous gifts he had? Not much more than Frodo at Mount Doom in a way. He was doomed from the start in Arda marred.

So he was.

His gifts were his curse ... even unto Míriel, his mother, who chose to die of exhaustion, consumed in spirit and body.

Which came first? Was Fëanor born to make the Silmarils? I think he was.
I think that here, again, Tolkien conveniently ignores the idea of free will and returns to predetermination. There would be no Jewels without Fëanor and there would be no need for the Jewels without Melkor.

For Fëanor being come to his full might, was filled with a new thought, it may be that some shadow of foreknowledge came to him of the doom that drew near; and he pondered how the light of the Trees, the glory of the Blessed Realm might be preserved imperishable.

Voronwë wrote:

Yet I do not hold Fëanor blameless for his own fall. I do believe that there were certain choices that he could have freely made that would have possibly prevented the cementing of his feet on the road to evil.

Could Fëanor freely give the Silmarils to Yavanna? Not when he seldom remembered now that the light within them was not his own.
He is, in all things, extreme: in talent, in artistry, in passion, in selfishness, in pride ... the Silmarils were a part of him, as much a part as his own beating heart ... he could no more give them to the Valar any more than he could rip out his own heart ... not even to save the life of the Trees.

His fall came with his birth and through no deliberate choice of his own. Circumstance and Fate within the music marked his path from the beginning.

He was always doomed.

[truehobbit]

I come back to this late - I hope I can address all the things I meant to while reading the wonderful posts here.

Thanks for the info on the history of creating Fëanor, Voronwë, that helped!

I think one of the critical things to remember about Fëanor is that his mother Míriel is unable to survive bringing such a mighty son into the world.

I think this is one of the most confusing aspects for me, because I can't decide what to make of it.
Yes, the fact that she was drained beyond recovery is surely meant to stress just how powerful he is - ruining everything he comes in contact with even unconsciously, you might say.
But whether that really means he had no chance but to turn out the ruin of the Elves, I'm not sure.
Like Sassy said, it would seem to mean a lack of free will here.

I believe that Fëanor and Galadriel were very much cut from the same cloth. She too was both brilliant and willful. However, she managed to temper her pride, and enduring through the ages developed a degree of wisdom and understanding far beyond Fëanor's grasp.

I think this is brilliant!
In saying Fëanor is to the Elves what Melkor is to the Valar, I was wondering who Fëanor's better counterpart was, but couldn't think of one.
Melkor finds his counterpart in Aulë: another powerful being who wants to create things from scratch on his own. But Aulë realises his error when it's pointed out to him and repents of it so much that he offers to undo his work.
So, I was wondering if Fëanor had a counterpart, too, someone who almost went the same way, but saw the light in time. According to what you say, Voronwë, it would be Galadriel.

That is why we can relate to Fëanor. Talent or genius always come either with a price to pay (the cursed artist is no quiet or reliable man) or with a debt (the indebted artist pays his debt by fulfilling his destiny with hard work. But for whom?). Fëanor was in the former category.

Hmmh, I don't think I can relate to him, that's probably why I don't like him.
I don't believe this view of artists and genius is true, I think it's just a popular image of them since the 19th century. Maybe Tolkien believed it, too, and that's why he wrote Fëanor that way, but I don't really think so.

Many, if not all, of Fëanor's sins, if you care to call them that, seem to result from pride. This, I think, makes Fëanor a classically tragic figure, akin to MacBeth and others who I cannot think of at the moment.

Yes, it results from pride, and that's why, IMO, the one figure is most resembles is Melkor/Lucifer.

the Silmarils were a part of him, as much a part as his own beating heart ... he could no more give them to the Valar any more than he could rip out his own heart ... not even to save the life of the Trees.

And yet, that is exactly what he should have done!

Semprini pointed out he could do it no more than Frodo could throw the Ring into Mt Doom, which is a brilliant comparison, but I think it doesn't really hold.

When Frodo is asked to take the Ring, he is also virtually asked to rip out his own heart - and he agrees. Because he puts the good of the world higher than his own existence.
Fëanor did the opposite.

Maybe the comparison doesn't fully work anyway - Frodo and Fëanor's situations are very different - but if I would compare it at all, I'd compare the general willingness of the character in question to give up what is the greatest value to himself, in order to save the world from ruin, and at the request of someone (i.e. requiring a great deal of trust in the validity of the request and the person requesting).
Fëanor was also lacking in trust, as much as in selflessness.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Melkor finds his counterpart in Aulë: another powerful being who wants to create things from scratch on his own. But Aulë realises his error when it's pointed out to him and repents of it so much that he offers to undo his work.
So, I was wondering if Fëanor had a counterpart, too, someone who almost went the same way, but saw the light in time. According to what you say, Voronwë, it would be Galadriel.

I like the way you put that, Hobby. I would add that in a way, the 'person' that stands in the same relationship to Fëanor that Manwë stands to Melkor would be Lúthien "the greatest of all the Eldar."

the Silmarils were a part of him, as much a part as his own beating heart ... he could no more give them to the Valar any more than he could rip out his own heart ... not even to save the life of the Trees.

I disagree, Sass, as you know. As I said about this moment in the Sil thread (back at b77):

Here, at this pivotal moment, it is the influence of his enemy, Melkor, that most affects Fëanor, awakening his pride and greed. He declares that he would not do what was asked of him "of free will." He further declares that if the Valar force him they will be shown to truly be kindred of Melkor.

And Mandos says "Thou hast spoken" and Nienna "sang in mourning for the bitterness of the world and the Marring of Arda." Now Mandos knew that Fëanor's father, Finwë, had already been slain by Melkor at Formenos, as shown by his "Not the first" comment. He therefore must have known also that the Silmarils had been stolen by Melkor, and that for all practical reasons the answer of Fëanor was a moot point: there were no Silmarils available to break to use to revive the trees. And yet Mandos declares the importance of Fëanor's words.

We have spoken much in this thread and in its precursor at TORC about free will and predestination. I believe that this was a critical moment in which Fëanor could have chosen to exercise his free will and set himself (and his kindred) on a different path then the one that they ended up embarking on, leading inexorably to the Kinslaying and the Doom of Mandos, which would plague the Noldor with treason and the fear of treason throughout their exile in Middle-earth. As Tolkien says, "yet had he said yea at the first, before the tidings came from Formenos, it may be that his afer deeds would have been other than they were. But now the doom of the Noldor drew near."

But Fëanor, for all his fearful pride, is yet an object of sympathy, running from the Ring of Doom and fleeing into the night for his grief at the killing of his father, who "was dearer to him than the Light of Valinor or the peerless works of his hands; and who among sons, Elves or of Men, have held their fathers of greater worth?" Would the bitterness in his heart at the slaying of his father as well as the rape of his precious Silmarils not still led him to the same path even if he had freely agreed to give up the Silmarils when asked, or would his grief have been free of the madness that drove the Noldor to exile and misery? We can only speculate, but I suspect that Tolkien is suggesting that it would have.

[wilko185]

Fëanor did make genuine choices IMO, but I wouldn't want to say they were necessarily the wrong ones. I think it is worth remembering that Fëanor did not just waste his gifts, he used them spectacularly. Yes he could have done more, but nevertheless his achievements were unsurpassed.
("The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long - and you have burned so very, very brightly, Roy." )

Following from V's quote from "Of the Sun and Moon" we have this, which again brings in the idea of felix culpa mentioned in the Éowyn thread:

Manwë wept and bowed his head. But at that last word of Fëanor: that at the least the Noldor should do deeds to live in song for ever: he raised his head, as one that hears a voice afar off, and he said: 'Dear-bought those songs shall be accounted, and yet shall be well-bought. For the price could be no other. Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil yet be good to have been.'

'And yet remain evil,' quoth Mandos. 'To me shall Fëanor come soon.'

Manwë says Fëanor's deeds were worth their price. Speaking as a reader I have to agree, of course. Whether or not I admire or like Fëanor depends very much on whether I view him as a character in the grand scheme of things, or as an individual person. Were I an Elf of Alqualondë I'm not so sure I say the price was worth it .

There is always a balance of fate and free-will, and I do think that Fëanor was something of a victim of circumstance, not least because Tolkien's characters are largely pre-determined at birth (they are generally fully-described when the characters are first introduced, and seldom change). Did Galadriel pass the test which Fëanor failed because she made better moral choices, or because her fiery Noldorin blood is tempered by that of her Telerin mother and her Vanyarin grandmother?

(While we're making comparisons, one figure that Fëanor reminds me of is Túrin, who also achieved greatness, but was doomed to fall victim to his pride)

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Yes, very apt comparison, wilko! Both Túrin and Fëanor were "good" characters that were caught in Melkor's web, but ultimately brought down by their own pride. Melkor was the Marrer; Fëanor and Túrin epitomized the Marred. (And Beren and Lúthien epitomized the transcending of the Marring of Arda, but that is another discussion altogether.

Did Galadriel pass the test which Fëanor failed because she made better moral choices, or because her fiery Noldorin blood is tempered by that of her Telerin mother and her Vanyarin grandmother?

Well, when you put it like that, its hard to reach any conclusion but one.

I am currently working on a post for the Sil discussion about Of the Sun and Moon in which I address the quote that you cite, so I beg your indulgence and patience.

[MaidenOfTheShieldarm]

Disclaimer: I have not read the Silm in a really long time (three years, I think), so this could be totally and completely off, in which case feel free to ignore me or whatever you feel is necessary.

Many, if not all, of Fëanor's sins, if you care to call them that, seem to result from pride. This, I think, makes Fëanor a classically tragic figure, akin to MacBeth and others who I cannot think of at the moment.

Yes, it results from pride, and that's why, IMO, the one figure is most resembles is Melkor/Lucifer.

Perhaps overtly, yes. They both suffer from too much pride, but the way in which they act upon this flaw is different. Therein, I believe, is the difference.

Melkor was a destroyer. He wanted dominion, and to achieve this he destroyed much that was good and beautiful. He perverted the Elves, the Ents, destroyed the Two Trees and was the cause of the marring of Arda. He caused untold sorrow and pain through this destruction, because of his pride.

Fëanor was a creator, a craftsman, an artist. He created something that was too beautiful and wanted to preserve them. Fëanor loved beauty, and though it was extremely selfish, he wanted to save his work, which was one of the main sources of his pride.

That, perhaps, is the difference. Fëanor had love. Misdirected, misguided, mis-lots of other things. Melkor loved only himself and power and sought to frustrate the aims of all who works against him. I do not think that Fëanor was ever set against anyone so much as he was set for himself.