Tolkien and Irish Mythology - A Study
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Voronwë the Faithful
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Aargh! I have to get back into this thread. I read the first two chapters and finished before everyone else! - and then stopped reading.
Sorry, Alatar, because this is really interesting stuff for me. I got a bit bogged down thinking about the Romans and the Greek ... something in Din's long post on B77 kind of sent me off into the woods because it reminded me of something peripheral that I'd been researching ... but I'll try to read chapters 3 and 4 this week and be ready for Idylle's comments on the relation of ch. 4 to Tolkien's professional life.
Jn
Sorry, Alatar, because this is really interesting stuff for me. I got a bit bogged down thinking about the Romans and the Greek ... something in Din's long post on B77 kind of sent me off into the woods because it reminded me of something peripheral that I'd been researching ... but I'll try to read chapters 3 and 4 this week and be ready for Idylle's comments on the relation of ch. 4 to Tolkien's professional life.
Jn
A fool's paradise is a wise man's hell.
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IdylleSeethes
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Well, lets consider that settled then! Onward to the next two chapters:
BRICRIU'S FEAST, AND THE WAR OF WORDS OF THE WOMEN OF ULSTER
and
THE CHAMPIONSHIP OF ULSTER
BRICRIU'S FEAST, AND THE WAR OF WORDS OF THE WOMEN OF ULSTER
and
THE CHAMPIONSHIP OF ULSTER
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IdylleSeethes
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You need to be familiar with chapters IV and V and it is helpful to be familiar with some version of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight.
Chapter IV concerns the feast, Chapter V concerns the challenge.
This is an early telling of the story that became Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, which was the focus of some of Tolkien's professional work.
Sir Gawain and the Green Knight starts in Arthur's hall with the gathering of the Knights of the Round Table on Whitsunday, and continues until someone does a worthy deed. In Briciu, it is a gathering of the Red Branch Knights.
The chopping block test is shared by Briciu's Feast and Sir Gawain and the Green Knight.
Roger Loomis (Studies in Medieval Literature) considers Gawain to be congruent with Cuchulain. There is some ambiguity in the identity of Cuchulain and Curoi as sons of Lug. Loomis speculates that Cuchulain actually means "little Curoi", thus referring to Cuchulain by a different name when he was young. Although the name is different, this agrees with the first chapters of the story we are reading. Aspects of both sons feed into the Gawain story. Curoi in Briciu is Bercilac (the Green Knight) and Cuchulain is Gawain. Cuchulain is considered by some to be the progenitor of Gawain. (Lug is Lancelot)
Sir Gawain and the Green Knight is one of a handful of stories that Tolkien worked with professionally. Others are Pearl, Sir Orfeo, and Beowulf. Tolkien's field of Philology considered itself to be concerned with the inventory, history, and meaning of words. The old texts that were studied were mines from which words and meanings could be collected. The stories were irrelevant. Tolkien crossed a boundary by being concerned about the story. He mined the stories for clues about the character of mythology. He used these in the development of his own stories. Gawain establishes the pattern for LOTR. What Tolkien could see in Gawain was a Christian message added to the older Cuchulain story. Some see Gawain as a story about the importance of chastity, but it is really about honesty. The injury wasn't for being unchaste, but for not reporting honestly the days' events.
The Gawain parallels with LOTR include:
- a gathering of heroes, which some lesser beings attend. Briciu's place for Gawain. Elrond's for LOTR.
- a hero, surrounded by his "betters", created from one of the lesser beings who possesses a strong sense of responsibility. Humility is an important aspect of the hero.
- a hero who volunteers for a "false" quest. In Gawain it starts as the acceptance of the chopping challenge and is transformed later into chastity, also a false quest. In LOTR it is the destruction of the ring.
- a hero who fails the test of the "false" quest. Gawain fails the chastity test. Frodo fails to destroy the ring.
- a hero who succeeds at his real test. Gawain's test was honesty. Frodo's was mercy. Gawain does fall a little short here.
- a minor punishment for the hero's transgression. Gawain's neck is nicked. Frodo loses a finger.
In contrast, Cuchulain, an acknowledged hero, is challenged (after others fail), accepts, and is spared for his integrity. The Cuchulain story gives us the basic challenge story. The Gawain author has all the "heroes" decline the challenge and elevates a minor figure to accept the quest. He added the Christian elements which are the true test, the failure of the hero, the forgiveness of the transgression concerning the apparent test, and the minor punishment. Tolkien substituted mercy for honesty.
There is also the story of the cup (horn) of truth. It somehow designates those women who are true from those who are not. In both sets of stories it is used at a feast. The cup (horn) is passed from one to the next. This is used as a test for Guinevere, sometimes initiated by Morgana.
By "false", I intend to mean it is a ruse, intended to mislead the reader and obscure the real test.
I admit to there being some minor incongruity, especially concerning punishment, but remember our adaptation discussions. How does Tolkien rate vs that other guy?
Chapter IV concerns the feast, Chapter V concerns the challenge.
This is an early telling of the story that became Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, which was the focus of some of Tolkien's professional work.
Sir Gawain and the Green Knight starts in Arthur's hall with the gathering of the Knights of the Round Table on Whitsunday, and continues until someone does a worthy deed. In Briciu, it is a gathering of the Red Branch Knights.
The chopping block test is shared by Briciu's Feast and Sir Gawain and the Green Knight.
Roger Loomis (Studies in Medieval Literature) considers Gawain to be congruent with Cuchulain. There is some ambiguity in the identity of Cuchulain and Curoi as sons of Lug. Loomis speculates that Cuchulain actually means "little Curoi", thus referring to Cuchulain by a different name when he was young. Although the name is different, this agrees with the first chapters of the story we are reading. Aspects of both sons feed into the Gawain story. Curoi in Briciu is Bercilac (the Green Knight) and Cuchulain is Gawain. Cuchulain is considered by some to be the progenitor of Gawain. (Lug is Lancelot)
Sir Gawain and the Green Knight is one of a handful of stories that Tolkien worked with professionally. Others are Pearl, Sir Orfeo, and Beowulf. Tolkien's field of Philology considered itself to be concerned with the inventory, history, and meaning of words. The old texts that were studied were mines from which words and meanings could be collected. The stories were irrelevant. Tolkien crossed a boundary by being concerned about the story. He mined the stories for clues about the character of mythology. He used these in the development of his own stories. Gawain establishes the pattern for LOTR. What Tolkien could see in Gawain was a Christian message added to the older Cuchulain story. Some see Gawain as a story about the importance of chastity, but it is really about honesty. The injury wasn't for being unchaste, but for not reporting honestly the days' events.
The Gawain parallels with LOTR include:
- a gathering of heroes, which some lesser beings attend. Briciu's place for Gawain. Elrond's for LOTR.
- a hero, surrounded by his "betters", created from one of the lesser beings who possesses a strong sense of responsibility. Humility is an important aspect of the hero.
- a hero who volunteers for a "false" quest. In Gawain it starts as the acceptance of the chopping challenge and is transformed later into chastity, also a false quest. In LOTR it is the destruction of the ring.
- a hero who fails the test of the "false" quest. Gawain fails the chastity test. Frodo fails to destroy the ring.
- a hero who succeeds at his real test. Gawain's test was honesty. Frodo's was mercy. Gawain does fall a little short here.
- a minor punishment for the hero's transgression. Gawain's neck is nicked. Frodo loses a finger.
In contrast, Cuchulain, an acknowledged hero, is challenged (after others fail), accepts, and is spared for his integrity. The Cuchulain story gives us the basic challenge story. The Gawain author has all the "heroes" decline the challenge and elevates a minor figure to accept the quest. He added the Christian elements which are the true test, the failure of the hero, the forgiveness of the transgression concerning the apparent test, and the minor punishment. Tolkien substituted mercy for honesty.
There is also the story of the cup (horn) of truth. It somehow designates those women who are true from those who are not. In both sets of stories it is used at a feast. The cup (horn) is passed from one to the next. This is used as a test for Guinevere, sometimes initiated by Morgana.
By "false", I intend to mean it is a ruse, intended to mislead the reader and obscure the real test.
I admit to there being some minor incongruity, especially concerning punishment, but remember our adaptation discussions. How does Tolkien rate vs that other guy?
Idylle, iirc Gawain was originally venerated as a Welsh solar deity. For that reason I have thought his origin (long, long ago) might be Apollo. Do attributes of this sort also attach to Cuchulain?
I remember asking you once about the differing presentations of Morgan, and the likelihood that her final manifestation in the French Arthurian tales is an amalgam of earlier goddesses. I'm wondering now if this might be true of Gawain ... if his true origin is Cuchulain, whether he was melded to other existing deity(ies) by the Welsh.
Btw, I read Tolkien's translation of the Green Knight about a year ago and have been wanting to start a thread about passages in LotR that sound as if they might have been lifted from the Green Knight. One of these days ...
Jn
I remember asking you once about the differing presentations of Morgan, and the likelihood that her final manifestation in the French Arthurian tales is an amalgam of earlier goddesses. I'm wondering now if this might be true of Gawain ... if his true origin is Cuchulain, whether he was melded to other existing deity(ies) by the Welsh.
Btw, I read Tolkien's translation of the Green Knight about a year ago and have been wanting to start a thread about passages in LotR that sound as if they might have been lifted from the Green Knight. One of these days ...
Jn
A fool's paradise is a wise man's hell.
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IdylleSeethes
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Cuchulain is an obvious analog of Achilles (the single weakness). Gawain has several other roots.
Gawain<Gualganus<Volcanus<Vulcan who is the Greek blacksmith god
Gawain is also mentioned as servant of the Goddess. Matthews wrote a book related to this in the early '90s, but he also gave us the Sarmations, so be careful. In some variations the goddess is a female trinity of his grandmother Igraine (Arthur's mother), his mother Morgana (Arthur's step-sister), and his sister Elaine. In some versions the goddess is solely Morgana. Gawain's wife was Luned which is derived from a moon goddess. He also sacrifices himself for the greater good to the dark goddess Ragnall in some stories. She is a hag before the ceremony and turns into a beautiful woman in bed. Hmm. He meets the warrior goddess Ardala in SGATGK. In some versions he has a pentagram on his body, considered to represent the goddess of the womb. Generally, he was available to any woman/goddess who wanted him and for this reason the libertine Gawain was supplanted by the pure Galahad as the stories became more Christian.
The association with the sun exists, but appears somewhat obliquely. The congruence of SGATGK with the solar cycles is one aspect. In some stories his power peaks at noon, which comes in handy in some confrontations, including I think, against Lancelot. The Irish sun god is Lug, Cuchulains father. This corresponds to Lugos, a French sun god. However some consider that Cuchulain's (the young god) beheading of Curoi (the old god) represents the new year. In my last post I mentioned the ambiguity between Curoi and Cuchulain.
The Welsh form of Gawain is Gwalchmai, which literally means hawk of May.
Gawain<Gualganus<Volcanus<Vulcan who is the Greek blacksmith god
Gawain is also mentioned as servant of the Goddess. Matthews wrote a book related to this in the early '90s, but he also gave us the Sarmations, so be careful. In some variations the goddess is a female trinity of his grandmother Igraine (Arthur's mother), his mother Morgana (Arthur's step-sister), and his sister Elaine. In some versions the goddess is solely Morgana. Gawain's wife was Luned which is derived from a moon goddess. He also sacrifices himself for the greater good to the dark goddess Ragnall in some stories. She is a hag before the ceremony and turns into a beautiful woman in bed. Hmm. He meets the warrior goddess Ardala in SGATGK. In some versions he has a pentagram on his body, considered to represent the goddess of the womb. Generally, he was available to any woman/goddess who wanted him and for this reason the libertine Gawain was supplanted by the pure Galahad as the stories became more Christian.
The association with the sun exists, but appears somewhat obliquely. The congruence of SGATGK with the solar cycles is one aspect. In some stories his power peaks at noon, which comes in handy in some confrontations, including I think, against Lancelot. The Irish sun god is Lug, Cuchulains father. This corresponds to Lugos, a French sun god. However some consider that Cuchulain's (the young god) beheading of Curoi (the old god) represents the new year. In my last post I mentioned the ambiguity between Curoi and Cuchulain.
The Welsh form of Gawain is Gwalchmai, which literally means hawk of May.
Thanks, Idylle - very interesting. Yes, now that you mention it, it was the waning and waxing of Gawain's strength with the sun's strength that caused me to associate him as a solar deity - that together with the Year + 1 day motif in SGATGK.
She is a hag before the ceremony and turns into a beautiful woman in bed.
This motif occurs in a number of Celtic tales, iirc. Fertility symbolism is the obvious culprit, but I suspect it might run deeper than that because Morgana always appears in the stories with an assistant, or, I seem to recall one story in which she is herself the hag who turns into a young woman (and the old woman who supervises the test in SGATGK).
It seems to me not coincidental that the women appear in pairs or in threes, and I neglected to watch for that in the first two chapters of Cuchulain, but I will watch for it now.
Jn
She is a hag before the ceremony and turns into a beautiful woman in bed.
This motif occurs in a number of Celtic tales, iirc. Fertility symbolism is the obvious culprit, but I suspect it might run deeper than that because Morgana always appears in the stories with an assistant, or, I seem to recall one story in which she is herself the hag who turns into a young woman (and the old woman who supervises the test in SGATGK).
It seems to me not coincidental that the women appear in pairs or in threes, and I neglected to watch for that in the first two chapters of Cuchulain, but I will watch for it now.
Jn
A fool's paradise is a wise man's hell.
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Voronwë the Faithful
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Just reporting that I have read the chapters in questions, and Idylle and Jn's comments, with great interest.
As anticipated, however, I really have nothing productive to say.
As anticipated, however, I really have nothing productive to say.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."