The other Legolas Greanleaf

[superwizard]

Does anyone know about The Legolas of Gondolin? I mean is it possible that he is the same Legolas that we know from The Lord of the Rings or is it simply someone else with a similar name? I know Glorfindel was supposedly the same so maybe Legolas was as wll? What are your opinions on this matter?

[axordil]

Things we know:

1) Elves don't seem to reuse names
2) Legolas was the son of Thranduil, a kinsman of Celeborn
3) Celeborn was Sindar
4) Gondolin was a Noldor hangout

I find it more likely that JRRT liked the name and decided to use it in LOTR, since he assumed the Sil would never see the light of day at that point.

[superwizard]

4) Gondolin was a Noldor hangout

Yes but not all of the elves in Gondolin were Noldor, some of them were Sindarin also. Also Glorfindel reused his name.

[axordil]

Glorfindel is singular, and it is heavily implied (but never explained) that in some way the one in Imladris IS the one in Gondolin.

I was not aware of Gondolin being the home of any Sindar. Where is this said?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I am not where my books are at, but I'm pretty sure that somewhere Tolkien makes it clear that the name Legolas was simply reused because he liked it (unlike Glorfindel) and that there was no connection between the two characters.

Ax, in the Sil Tolkien says that Turgon leads a host of (if I recall correctly) one-third of the Noldor that followed Fingolfin, and a larger number still of the Sindar to Gondolin when it was first created.

[axordil]

I must have missed that. All these years and I always thought Gondolin was like this little Noldorin enclave...

[Parmamaite]

I am not where my books are at, but I'm pretty sure that somewhere Tolkien makes it clear that the name Legolas was simply reused because he liked it (unlike Glorfindel) and that there was no connection between the two characters.

Are you sure about this? I can't remember that at all, but I think that Christopher says somewhere in HoME that the two Legolasses can't be the same (can't find it now ).

Anyway, that Legolas of Gondolin and Legolas of Mirkwood is the same elf, is about as probable as Rúmil of Tirion being identical with Rúmil of Lórien.

[superwizard]

Thx for answering that V. Still it would have been nice if Legolas had indeed been the same. It would give him a lot more history...

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I am not where my books are at, but I'm pretty sure that somewhere Tolkien makes it clear that the name Legolas was simply reused because he liked it (unlike Glorfindel) and that there was no connection between the two characters.

Are you sure about this? I can't remember that at all, but I think that Christopher says somewhere in HoME that the two Legolasses can't be the same (can't find it now )

Not at all sure. I'll try to look it up when I go home later.

[Old_Tom_Bombadil]

I am certain that the Legolas of The Sil is a different person. There is also an elf named Denethor and a human named Haldir.

[MithLuin]

Romestamo's remarks on this topic, on the TORc thread Was Legolas at the Fall of Gondolin?:

greenleafwood: To get back to books, the two Legolas characters are not the same. I don't know if Tolkien forgot he had already used that name, since no two Elves generally possess the same name.

Further proof in agreement with greenleafwood:

It is possible that there were two Elves called Legolas, although it is important to remember that the first appears only in the very early account of the Fall of Gondolin in "The Book of Lost Tales" (HOME I & II). Many of the ideas from this work were lost or severely modified in the development of the Legendarium, and it is likely that this first Legolas would have been omitted or renamed. That said, it is still possible for both Legolases (Legoli?) to co-exist within what we know of Middle-earth.

What JRRT writes regarding reuse of names is (referring to Glorfindel)[my bolding]:

• At any rate what at first sight may seem the simplest solution must be abandoned: sc. that we have merely a reduplication of names, and that Glorfindel of Gondolin and Glorfindel of Rivendell were different persons. This repetition of so striking a name, though possible, would not be credible. No other major character in the Elvish legends as reported in The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings has a name borne by another Elvish person of importance.

•This does not exclude reduplication of names.•

For example: Rúmil of Tirion was a Noldorin Elda who created the earliest form of writing (the Sarati) and apparently composed the Ainulindalë. The later history of this Sage appears in HOME- but he does not remain on the Hither Shore.

Rúmil of Lórien was a Silvan Elf (of the Tawarwaith) which makes him probably of Telerin origin, closely related to the Nandor. As a guard on the borders of Lórien, he could not be described as an Elvish person of importance. It is almost absolutely certain that he is NOT the same person as Rúmil of Tirion.

Given that the first Legolas Greenleaf was a minor figure

• a man [sic] of the Tree, who led the exiles over Tumladin in the dark, being night-sighted, and he liveth still in Tol Eressëa named by the Eldar there Laiqalassë

He also could not be described as an Elvish person of importance.. Consequently there is no reason why both he, and Legolas of the Fellowship couldn't exist in Middle-earth. What is certain, however, is that they are NOT the same person.

(Parts of this post have appeared previously in Haldir, the Tengwar, the Sarati, and Haldir's brothers...)

(Edit: Alassemiire_Arineel: It is probable that Legolas Greenleaf of Mirkwood was alive at the time

On the balance of probabilities, it is very unlikely that Legolas of Mirkwood was alive in the First Age. There is no proof that he predates even the end of the Second Age.

And from later:

However, there is reasonable circumstantial evidence to suggest that Legolas was not present in the Battles before Mordor, and was not old enough to travel immediately prior to the War of the Last Alliance.

Thranduil was greatly affected by his wartime experiences:

• [...] there was in Thranduil's heart a still deeper shadow. He had seen the horror of Mordor and could not forget it. If ever he looked south its memory dimmed the light of the Sun, and though he knew that it was now broken and deserted and under the vigilance of the Kings of Men, fear spoke in his heart that it was not conquered for ever: it would arise again.
  
  APPENDIX B, THE SINDARIN PRINCES OF THE SILVAN ELVES, Unfinished Tales

Yet Legolas seems undaunted by the prospect of going to Mordor, suggesting that he had never been there before. Similarly,

• [...] In the Second Age their king, Oropher [the father of Thranduil, father of Legolas], had withdraw northward beyond the Gladden Fields. This he did to be free from the power and encroachments of the Dwarves of Moria, which had grown to be the greatest of the mansions of the Dwarves recorded in history; and also he resented the intrusions of Celeborn and Galadriel into Lórien. But as yet there was little to fear between the Greenwood and the Mountains and there was constant intercourse between his people and their kin across the river, until the War of the Last Alliance.
  
  ibid.

Yet Legolas has never been to Lórien - a journey that a Prince would be expected to make, if only for political reasons - suggesting that he was too young to travel just prior to the end of the Second Age. Thus, I would disagree with guesses that make Legolas much older than the Third Age, and would guess that if Legolas was born prior to the time of the War of the Last Alliance, he was too young to have gone to war.

To me, the issue is more caught up in the languages - are they even the same names?

Since "Legolas" is a Silvan name, I think that if there was a Noldo named "Green-leaves" in Gondolin he must have been named "Laegolas", the pure Sindarin form of the name.

Note that there are two Elves named "Gelmir" in the legends of the First Age: Gwindor's brother Gelmir who was slain in front of Gwindor during the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, and Gelmir the companion of Arminas, with whom he guided Tuor to the Gate of the Noldor and brought a message of warning from Ulmo to Orodreth in Nargothrond. The former Gelmir appears in The Silmarillion, the latter in Unfinished Tales. However, according to one of the later HoMe volumes (possibly The War of the Jewels), JRRT considered renaming Arminas' friend Faramir. This would have both avoided the duplication of the name and provided a First Age source for the name of the Prince of Ithilien. Moreover, JRRT also considered having the Elves "Faramir" and Arminas be Eärendil's companions on his voyage, rather than the three Men who are his companions in the published Silm.

I poked through 3 or 4 threads to find that one, and it hit all the major points. Seemingly, Tolkien never did come right out and say "They aren't the same elf," because no one knew about the Fall of Gondolin and he never rewrote it. I assume that a revised Fall of Gondolin (wouldn't we all like to see that!) would not include "Legolas Greenleaf", for what that is worth. (Rog would also bite the dust as a name, though his character would stay). But if he did choose to keep the name, the one in Gondolin would be Sindarin translation of the Noldo's original Quenya name, while the Legolas of the Fellowship would have a Silvan-influenced Sindarin name. Perhaps both translations wouldn't be "Greenleaf"

[Parmamaite]

especially with:

I assume that a revised Fall of Gondolin (wouldn't we all like to see that!)

Oh yes we would!

[superwizard]

Thanks for clearing that up MithLuin. Of course no one so far has presented conclusive evididence...