It is currently Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:21 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Sam as Frodo's Garner
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 1:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:52 pm
Posts: 27
Question on Sam as Frodo's garner. Was he paid for this service? did he do it for free? how did it come about?





thanks.

_________________
“I am in fact a Hobbit (in all but size). I like gardens, trees and unmechanized farmlands; I smoke a pipe, and like good plain food (unrefrigerated), but detest French cooking; I like, and even dare to wear in these dull days, ornamental waistcoats. I am fond of mushrooms (out of a field); have a very simple sense of humour (which even my appreciative critics find tiresome); I go to bed late and get up late.”
-J.R.R Tolkien


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 2:53 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:45 pm
Posts: 2261
Location: Small drinking village with a severe fishing problem
Given that the Shire was rather based on rural English villages of the time, I think it almost certain that not only was he paid, but that it seems to have been a sort of a generational job - Sam would have some day taken over for "his old Gaffer" and continued the service.

Even before the Hobbit, Bilbo seems to have been rather well-off and in the category of a gentleman, given the size of his 'estate', which Frodo being his heir would have been too. So Sam was his employee, no matter how friendly they were, Sam worked for Frodo and was of a distinctly lower class.

(Edit to add: Sam even calls him Master Frodo)

I will point out that being his employee did not diminish the love Sam felt for Frodo in the slightest. ;)

_________________
I before E except after C
Or when sounding like A as in neighbor and weigh
Or in science and ageist, when syllables split
English is weird, but I don't give a crap.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:27 pm 
Offline
1000%
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:41 am
Posts: 36350
elengil wrote:
Given that the Shire was rather based on rural English villages of the time, I think it almost certain that not only was he paid, but that it seems to have been a sort of a generational job - Sam would have some day taken over for "his old Gaffer" and continued the service.


Yes, the tradition goes back to Sam's great-great grandfather, Holman the Greenhanded, who started the tradition in Tighfield, which was the Gamgee's home before they came to Hobbiton. It was Holman's grandson, his namesake Holman Greenhand, was the first gardener for Bilbo at Bag End, and then Hamfast (the Gaffer), his nephew, took over for him. It was Holman Greenhand's description of Bilbo that helped convince Gandalf that Bilbo was the right person to accompany Thorin on the Quest of Erebor.

_________________
In gratitude forever … .


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:37 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:52 pm
Posts: 27
Thanks for the great information and clarifications. Great forum.

_________________
“I am in fact a Hobbit (in all but size). I like gardens, trees and unmechanized farmlands; I smoke a pipe, and like good plain food (unrefrigerated), but detest French cooking; I like, and even dare to wear in these dull days, ornamental waistcoats. I am fond of mushrooms (out of a field); have a very simple sense of humour (which even my appreciative critics find tiresome); I go to bed late and get up late.”
-J.R.R Tolkien


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 5:12 pm 
Offline
1000%
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:41 am
Posts: 36350
As for the question of how Sam (and his father and the other gardeners in his family) were paid, I don't think that Tolkien ever made that clear, or if he did, I don't recall it. The only specific reference to money that I can think of was the sale of Bill the Pony by Bill Ferny for 12 silver pennies, which was three times his "worth" at the time (though of course Bill the Pony turned to be of incalculable worth), and while that was in Bree, not the Shire, and Butterman actually paid the price himself (and also reimbursed Merry for the loss of his ponies), it is noted that Frodo wondered whether he could afford it, suggesting that he brought some money with him, though not much. It is an interesting question to consider, though I don't know that a proper answer is possible.

_________________
In gratitude forever … .


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2020 12:22 am 
Offline
2018 Fitbit Balrog*
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:03 pm
Posts: 12952
Interesting! I never noticed the lack of money in the book before this.

_________________
*title copyright: Teremia

'You just said "your getting shorter": you've obviously been drinking too much ent-draught and not enough Prim's.' - Jude


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:25 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 6:50 am
Posts: 46
Location: Slipping the surly bonds
elengil wrote:
Given that the Shire was rather based on rural English villages of the time, I think it almost certain that not only was he paid, but that it seems to have been a sort of a generational job - Sam would have some day taken over for "his old Gaffer" and continued the service. ;)


Based on England in the late 1800s, yes, certainly the “Gardner” job would have been paid. But not well paid - labouring gardeners of that era were among the poorest workers. You had to be landscaping whole estates like Capability Brown to get well off.

But kitchen gardeners were often allowed to sell excess produce from the gardens they tended at the local market, which would have brought in a few pennies. And they wouldn’t be going hungry.

Also, accomodation was often provided or subsidised. The Gardners probably didn’t own their hole in Bagshot Row. Pure speculation, but the Bagginses might have owned it and rented it out cheaply or for free to the Gaffer


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 5:39 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:45 pm
Posts: 2261
Location: Small drinking village with a severe fishing problem
scirocco wrote:
Also, accomodation was often provided or subsidised. The Gardners probably didn’t own their hole in Bagshot Row. Pure speculation, but the Bagginses might have owned it and rented it out cheaply or for free to the Gaffer


Either I read it once, or I have just assumed it, that Bagshot Row was like (nicer) tenant housing, owned by BagEnd and rented out to those who likely worked at the estate. Now I will have to figure out if I really read that somewhere...

_________________
I before E except after C
Or when sounding like A as in neighbor and weigh
Or in science and ageist, when syllables split
English is weird, but I don't give a crap.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 5:53 pm 
Offline
Meanwhile...
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:31 pm
Posts: 16353
Location: Out on the banks
Tolkien really just glossed over the economics of the Middle-earth. Shire appears to have no manufacturing and minimal trade, no cities of any size, no financial institutions. Their lifestyle is of a countryside that in real world could only exist (to the extent that it ever did) thanks to its relationship with the city and global trade.

By contrast I'm reminded of a critic who commented on Dumas that he always knew to a penny how much his characters had in their pocket.

_________________
Image

“I am not so blind that I can't see darkness.”
Dangerous Beans
Terry Pratchett, The Amazing Maurice and His Educated Rodents


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:38 pm 
Offline
1000%
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:41 am
Posts: 36350
Frelga wrote:
Shire appears to have no manufacturing and minimal trade, no cities of any size, no financial institutions.


[Gandalf voice]The Shire. [/Gandalf voice]

I'm reminded of G.R.R. Martin complaining that Tolkien does not say what Aragorn's tax policy would be in his rule of Gondor. To that I say, "Thank goodness!"

_________________
In gratitude forever … .


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:04 pm 
Offline
Meanwhile...
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:31 pm
Posts: 16353
Location: Out on the banks
Shire! Baggins!

_________________
Image

“I am not so blind that I can't see darkness.”
Dangerous Beans
Terry Pratchett, The Amazing Maurice and His Educated Rodents


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:43 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:59 pm
Posts: 2335
I don't like being reminded of the absurdity of The Shire's economics.

I think Aragorn would have cut capital gains taxes.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:33 pm 
Offline
Meanwhile...
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:31 pm
Posts: 16353
Location: Out on the banks
Do we even know if Gondor had a stock market at any point in its history?

_________________
Image

“I am not so blind that I can't see darkness.”
Dangerous Beans
Terry Pratchett, The Amazing Maurice and His Educated Rodents


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:41 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:45 pm
Posts: 2261
Location: Small drinking village with a severe fishing problem
Frelga wrote:
Do we even know if Gondor had a stock market at any point in its history?


Oh sure, you need to sell your cows somewhere!

_________________
I before E except after C
Or when sounding like A as in neighbor and weigh
Or in science and ageist, when syllables split
English is weird, but I don't give a crap.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:42 pm 
Offline
2018 Fitbit Balrog*
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:03 pm
Posts: 12952
They had cows? I only saw fancy horses.

Reminds me of Tiffany Aching’s review of a romance book - There were no sheep in it anywhere! Who was taking care of them?

_________________
*title copyright: Teremia

'You just said "your getting shorter": you've obviously been drinking too much ent-draught and not enough Prim's.' - Jude


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:22 pm 
Offline
Hobbit
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 7:45 pm
Posts: 6148
Location: Missouri
Inanna wrote:
They had cows? I only saw fancy horses.

I'm certain I saw a hobbit with a cow in one of the movies. Quick googling suggests it was this pic, but I can't be certain:

Attachment:
cow hobbit.jpg
cow hobbit.jpg [ 331.7 KiB | Viewed 1157 times ]


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:30 pm 
Offline
Lán de Grás
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 3:54 pm
Posts: 4717
I'm pretty sure I remember one of the hobbits trying to pull a cow that didn't want to move - but Frelga was asking about Gondor...

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 9:05 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:45 pm
Posts: 2261
Location: Small drinking village with a severe fishing problem
Are we otherwise suggesting Gondor was vegetarian?

_________________
I before E except after C
Or when sounding like A as in neighbor and weigh
Or in science and ageist, when syllables split
English is weird, but I don't give a crap.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2020 3:52 am 
Offline
2018 Fitbit Balrog*
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:03 pm
Posts: 12952
elengil wrote:
Are we otherwise suggesting Gondor was vegetarian?
Huh?

_________________
*title copyright: Teremia

'You just said "your getting shorter": you've obviously been drinking too much ent-draught and not enough Prim's.' - Jude


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2020 6:05 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 6:50 am
Posts: 46
Location: Slipping the surly bonds
The smooth talking salesman at the hobbit "stock" market would always be spinning you a line about how the cow you were about to buy was as hardy and reliable as the Kine of Araw and how her horns would be fit for a king's music. :)


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group