That was the first thing I tried, superwizard—but yellow or pink on pastel blue is even worse!superwizard wrote:Highlight them with your cursor and then you shall be able to:)
LotR: What do you dislike about the Books?
-
Primula Baggins
- Living in hope
- Posts: 40005
- Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:43 am
- Location: Sailing the luminiferous aether
- Contact:
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
-
Voronwë the Faithful
- At the intersection of here and now
- Posts: 46163
- Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:41 am
- Contact:
Sorry, Prim! 
I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew:
Of wind I sang, a wind there came and in the branches blew.
Beyond the Sun, beyond the Moon, the foam was on the Sea,
And by the strand of Ilmarin there grew a golden Tree.
Beneath the stars of Ever-eve in Eldamar it shone,
In Eldamar beside the walls of Elven Tirion.
There long the golden leaves have grown upon the branching years,
While here beyond the Sundering Seas now fall the Elven-tears.
O Lórien! The Winter comes, the bare and leafless Day;
The leaves are falling in the stream, the River flows away.
O Lórien! Too long I have dwelt upon this Hither Shore
And in a fading crown have twined the golden elanor.
But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?
and
O Orofarnë, Lassemista, Carnimírië!
O rowan fair, upon your hair how white the blossom lay!
O rowan mine, I saw you shine upon a summer's day,
Your rind so bright, your leaves so light, your voice so cool and soft:
Upon your head how golden-red the crown you bore aloft!
O rowan dead, upon your head your hair is dry and grey;
Your crown is spilled, your voice is stilled for ever and a day.
O Orofarnë, Lassemista, Carnimírië!
I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew:
Of wind I sang, a wind there came and in the branches blew.
Beyond the Sun, beyond the Moon, the foam was on the Sea,
And by the strand of Ilmarin there grew a golden Tree.
Beneath the stars of Ever-eve in Eldamar it shone,
In Eldamar beside the walls of Elven Tirion.
There long the golden leaves have grown upon the branching years,
While here beyond the Sundering Seas now fall the Elven-tears.
O Lórien! The Winter comes, the bare and leafless Day;
The leaves are falling in the stream, the River flows away.
O Lórien! Too long I have dwelt upon this Hither Shore
And in a fading crown have twined the golden elanor.
But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?
and
O Orofarnë, Lassemista, Carnimírië!
O rowan fair, upon your hair how white the blossom lay!
O rowan mine, I saw you shine upon a summer's day,
Your rind so bright, your leaves so light, your voice so cool and soft:
Upon your head how golden-red the crown you bore aloft!
O rowan dead, upon your head your hair is dry and grey;
Your crown is spilled, your voice is stilled for ever and a day.
O Orofarnë, Lassemista, Carnimírië!
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
I think Galadriel's Lament is "real poetry".
For myself, I don't really mind the other stuff. People in books do stuff like that.
For instance, the song that Aragorn and Legolas sing for Boromir: This speaks of an era or a place where a man was expected to be not only a warrior but a wordsmith, where ease and fluidity in spoken and written words were highly regarded, and an uneducated, unlettered, unread man was seen as being less worthy. I don't know that it is "historical" in any real sense, but it is not unknown in history.
Théoden's verses are not quite so successful in my eyes, but that's Théoden's fault since I don't think much of him.
As for the Ents, I wonder what it sounded like in Entish? At any rate, those are heartfelt words, and their sincerity overcomes some of the awkwardness.
For myself, I don't really mind the other stuff. People in books do stuff like that.
For instance, the song that Aragorn and Legolas sing for Boromir: This speaks of an era or a place where a man was expected to be not only a warrior but a wordsmith, where ease and fluidity in spoken and written words were highly regarded, and an uneducated, unlettered, unread man was seen as being less worthy. I don't know that it is "historical" in any real sense, but it is not unknown in history.
Théoden's verses are not quite so successful in my eyes, but that's Théoden's fault since I don't think much of him.
As for the Ents, I wonder what it sounded like in Entish? At any rate, those are heartfelt words, and their sincerity overcomes some of the awkwardness.
Dig deeper.
-
Voronwë the Faithful
- At the intersection of here and now
- Posts: 46163
- Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:41 am
- Contact:
The only way I could figure out how to share it would be to upload it to Finale's site where you can share compositions...and then everyone would have to download Finale viewer. I have no idea how to make it into an mp3 or something like that unfortunately....plus you wouldn't hear any lyrics as it would just be MIDI.
-
Voronwë the Faithful
- At the intersection of here and now
- Posts: 46163
- Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:41 am
- Contact:
I suspect that that would not really preserve the quality very well. Maybe one of our tech wizards could give you some advice on how to make an MP3 or something from it. I'm not sure a MIDI would really be worth it.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
-
Voronwë the Faithful
- At the intersection of here and now
- Posts: 46163
- Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:41 am
- Contact:
-
axordil
- Pleasantly Twisted
- Posts: 8999
- Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:35 pm
- Location: Black Creek Bottoms
- Contact:
JRRT's verse in Elvish and Old English is actually not at all bad.
His other verse...one has the feeling that he knows how he wants the serious stuff to sound, but can't quite achieve it in Modern English without it coming off as stilted and stiff.
His silly stuff is just silly.
But there are exceptions...just not in LOTR. Some of the shorter pieces in the Tom Bombadil collection are OK. It makes me suspect that part of the problem is the context...sure, people in chansons and lais and sagas get up and recite all the freakin' time, but they are doing it within a context that is already poetic. Shifting from prose to sudden declamation of verse and back to meet expositional needs is like a bad musical in print.
I do think that The Road Goes Ever On is the best of the LOTR lot.
His other verse...one has the feeling that he knows how he wants the serious stuff to sound, but can't quite achieve it in Modern English without it coming off as stilted and stiff.
His silly stuff is just silly.
But there are exceptions...just not in LOTR. Some of the shorter pieces in the Tom Bombadil collection are OK. It makes me suspect that part of the problem is the context...sure, people in chansons and lais and sagas get up and recite all the freakin' time, but they are doing it within a context that is already poetic. Shifting from prose to sudden declamation of verse and back to meet expositional needs is like a bad musical in print.
I do think that The Road Goes Ever On is the best of the LOTR lot.
-
Old_Tom_Bombadil
- friend to badgers – namer of ponies
- Posts: 1980
- Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:56 pm
- Location: The Withywindle Valley
I was just joking about there not being enough Bombadil, but I knew that at least one person would say how they hated Tom so I though I'd make a pre-emptive strike.Eruname wrote:Tom, you said not enough Bombadill...I'm the opposite I'm afraid.
And for the record I DO like the poetry. Of course most of them are songs and are meant to be sung; they merely lack the musical setting. At the very least they should be read aloud.
In addition to the wonderful songs that Voronwë posted, I'd like to offer this uttering by Treebeard:
In the willow-meads of Tasarinan I walked in the Spring.
Ah! The sight and the smell of the Spring in Nan-tasarion!
And I said that it was good.
I wandered in Summer in the elm-woods of Ossiriand.
Ah! The light of the music in the Summer by the Seven Rivers of Ossir!
And I thought that was best.
To the beeches of Neldoreth I came in the Autumn.
Ah! The gold and the red and the sighing of leaves in the Autumn in Taur-na-neldor!
It was more than my desire.
To the pine-trees upon the highland of Dorthonion I climbed in the Winter.
Ah! The wind and the whiteness and the black branches of Winter upon Orod-na-Thôn!
My voice went up and sang in the sky.
And now all the lands lie under the wave,
And I walk in Ambaróna, in Tauremorna, in Aldalómë,
Where the roots are long,
And the years like thicker than the leaves
In Tauremornalómë.
If you're interested in hearing Tolkien's poems from LOTR set to music, Caspar Reiff and Peter Hall have composed and arranged most or all of them. You'll find them on four CDs, two of which feature Christopher Lee, recorded by The Tolkien Ensemble.
I agree about reading them aloud. Generally I can't "get" poetry unless I hear it. Though for me it kind of takes a good actor to interpret the tone of voice and stuff like that. I remember I didn't like Shakespeare at all until I saw Kenneth Branagh (sp?) in Othello. Then Hamlet totally made sense after I saw his movie and I now absolutely love that play.Old_Tom_Bombadil wrote: Of course most of them are songs and are meant to be sung; they merely lack the musical setting. At the very least they should be read aloud.
Tom, that's my favourite poem in the entire book. 
But then, I'm a shameless Treebeard sw00ner.
Quite a few years ago now, I made a decision to re-read LOTR with the goal of focusing on the two areas that I had always found.......less than compelling when I was younger: the poetry (well, much of it anyway), and the long descriptive passages of landscape. I had already read the book several times, and realized that I tended to skim over, or even skip entirely, the same sections time and time again. It had become something of a habit, I guess - rushing through the "tedious" or obscure bits to get to the parts that I had fallen in love with on my first reading, which usually meant the chapters oozing with dialogue..........I think that Tolkien is an absolute master at dialogue.
That reading was incredibly enlightening for me. It further deepened my appreciation of the book and changed how I would read it from then on. Most of the poems, for instance, are found within dialogue between characters - these are people singing, chanting and reciting verse as an accepted form of social intercourse. The poems reflect their different natures, as well as provide glimpses of the cultural traditions and history of their respective societies. I didn't really see that during my first readings.......it always seemed more like characters in a Broadway musical breaking out into song for no apparent reason, which always felt a little awkward and "staged" to me.
Later, the experience of reading LOTR to my two children also helped me appreciate (most) of the poems afresh. I think if it's at all possible, one should really try to read the book aloud at least once. The alliterative verse that is associated with "the songs of Rohan" is especially "tasty" when actually spoken. My favourite:
From dark Dunharrow in the dim morning
with thane and captain rode Thengel's son:
to Edoras he came, the ancient halls
of the Mark-wardens mist-enshrouded;
golden timbers were in gloom mantled.
Farewell he bade to his free people,
hearth and high-seat, and the hallowed places,
where long he had feasted ere the light faded.
Forth rode the king, fear behind him,
fate before him. Fealty kept he;
oaths he had taken, all fulfilled them.
Forth rode Théoden. Five nights and days
east and onward rode the Eorlingas
through Folde and Fenmarch and the Firienwood,
six thousand spears to Sunlending,
Mundburg the mighty under Mindolluin,
Sea-kings' city in the South-kingdom
foe-beleaguered, fire-encircled.
Doom drove them on. Darkness took them,
horse and horseman; hoofbeats afar
sank into silence: so the songs tell us.
I just alliterative verse.
But something that has grated me more upon successive readings is the number of times Tolkien finishes off a scene with a character saying "Let us go". An extremely minor quibble, I know, but one that unfortunately, once actually considered, becomes an irritatingly comic kind of exit.
But then, I'm a shameless Treebeard sw00ner.
Quite a few years ago now, I made a decision to re-read LOTR with the goal of focusing on the two areas that I had always found.......less than compelling when I was younger: the poetry (well, much of it anyway), and the long descriptive passages of landscape. I had already read the book several times, and realized that I tended to skim over, or even skip entirely, the same sections time and time again. It had become something of a habit, I guess - rushing through the "tedious" or obscure bits to get to the parts that I had fallen in love with on my first reading, which usually meant the chapters oozing with dialogue..........I think that Tolkien is an absolute master at dialogue.
That reading was incredibly enlightening for me. It further deepened my appreciation of the book and changed how I would read it from then on. Most of the poems, for instance, are found within dialogue between characters - these are people singing, chanting and reciting verse as an accepted form of social intercourse. The poems reflect their different natures, as well as provide glimpses of the cultural traditions and history of their respective societies. I didn't really see that during my first readings.......it always seemed more like characters in a Broadway musical breaking out into song for no apparent reason, which always felt a little awkward and "staged" to me.
Later, the experience of reading LOTR to my two children also helped me appreciate (most) of the poems afresh. I think if it's at all possible, one should really try to read the book aloud at least once. The alliterative verse that is associated with "the songs of Rohan" is especially "tasty" when actually spoken. My favourite:
From dark Dunharrow in the dim morning
with thane and captain rode Thengel's son:
to Edoras he came, the ancient halls
of the Mark-wardens mist-enshrouded;
golden timbers were in gloom mantled.
Farewell he bade to his free people,
hearth and high-seat, and the hallowed places,
where long he had feasted ere the light faded.
Forth rode the king, fear behind him,
fate before him. Fealty kept he;
oaths he had taken, all fulfilled them.
Forth rode Théoden. Five nights and days
east and onward rode the Eorlingas
through Folde and Fenmarch and the Firienwood,
six thousand spears to Sunlending,
Mundburg the mighty under Mindolluin,
Sea-kings' city in the South-kingdom
foe-beleaguered, fire-encircled.
Doom drove them on. Darkness took them,
horse and horseman; hoofbeats afar
sank into silence: so the songs tell us.
I just
alliterative verse.But something that has grated me more upon successive readings is the number of times Tolkien finishes off a scene with a character saying "Let us go". An extremely minor quibble, I know, but one that unfortunately, once actually considered, becomes an irritatingly comic kind of exit.
Who could be so lucky? Who comes to a lake for water and sees the reflection of moon.
Jalal ad-Din Rumi
-
Primula Baggins
- Living in hope
- Posts: 40005
- Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:43 am
- Location: Sailing the luminiferous aether
- Contact:
I particularly love
- Forth rode the king, fear behind him,
fate before him. Fealty kept he;
oaths he had taken, all fulfilled them.
Forth rode Théoden.
- Doom drove them on. Darkness took them,
horse and horseman; hoofbeats afar
sank into silence: so the songs tell us.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
Interestingly, both the Poetry and the descriptive passages fare better in audio productions. The BBC production handles the poetry superbly. When Gimli recited "In Moria, In Khazad-dûm" I couldn't believe how great it sounded. The delivery was perfect and also the acoustic effects used on the recording, the echoing sense of space, were just fantastic. In a similar fashion, they chose to use the minstrels song of the Battle of Pelennor Field as a sort of Narration. When I read the lines Prim quoted, I now "hear" them with Stephen Olivers wonderful melody and accompaniment. As for Bill Nighy's delivery of "Gil-Galad was an Elven King".... sw00000n.
In a similar way, the descriptions of Flora, fauna and landscapes which I so often skimmed or skipped when reading are much more interesting in Rob Inglis' unabridged recording. Perhaps its simply because its read aloud, but I think its more a function of the media. While I might skim through text, I won't fast forward the CD or tape. As such, I end up listening to what is currently being said instead of looking ahead to the next bit.
Gotta love audio.
In a similar way, the descriptions of Flora, fauna and landscapes which I so often skimmed or skipped when reading are much more interesting in Rob Inglis' unabridged recording. Perhaps its simply because its read aloud, but I think its more a function of the media. While I might skim through text, I won't fast forward the CD or tape. As such, I end up listening to what is currently being said instead of looking ahead to the next bit.
Gotta love audio.
The Vinyamars on Stage! This time at Bag End
-
superwizard
- Ingólemo
- Posts: 866
- Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 10:21 am
Alatar Gimli's poem of Moria is actually my favorite song! I think its just so great:
The world was young, the mountains green
No stain yet on the moon was seen,
No words were laid on stream or stone
When Durin woke and walked alone.
He named the nameless hills and dells;
He drank from yet untasted wells;
He stooped and looked in Mirrormere,
He saw a crown of stars appear,
As gems upon a silver thread,
Above the shadow of his head.
The word was fair, the mountains tall
In Elder Days before the fall
Of mighty kings in Nargothrond
And Gondolin, who now beyond
The Western Seas have passed away;
The world was fair in Durin's Day.
A king he was on carven throne
In many-pillared halls of stone
With golden roof and silver floor,
And runes of power upon the door.
The light of sun and star and moon
In shining lamps of crystal hewn
Undimmed by cloud or shade of night
There shone for ever fair and bright.
There hammer on the anvil smote,
There chisel clove, and graver wrote;
There forged was blade, and bound was hilt;
The delver mined, the mason built.
There beryl, pearl, and opal pale,
And metal wrought like fishes' mail,
Buckler and corset, axe and sword,
And shining spears were laid in hoard.
Unwearied then was Durin's folk;
Beneath the mountains musik woke;
The harper harped, the minstrels sang,
And at the gates the trumpets rang.
The world was grey, the mountains old,
The forge's fire is ashen-cold;
No harp is wrung, no hammer falls;
The darkness dwells in Durin's halls;
The shadow lies upon his upon tomb
In Moria, in Khazâd-dûm.
But still the sunken stars appear
In dark and windless Mirrormere;
There lies his crown in water deep,
Till Durin wakes again from sleep.
I just love that poem
The world was young, the mountains green
No stain yet on the moon was seen,
No words were laid on stream or stone
When Durin woke and walked alone.
He named the nameless hills and dells;
He drank from yet untasted wells;
He stooped and looked in Mirrormere,
He saw a crown of stars appear,
As gems upon a silver thread,
Above the shadow of his head.
The word was fair, the mountains tall
In Elder Days before the fall
Of mighty kings in Nargothrond
And Gondolin, who now beyond
The Western Seas have passed away;
The world was fair in Durin's Day.
A king he was on carven throne
In many-pillared halls of stone
With golden roof and silver floor,
And runes of power upon the door.
The light of sun and star and moon
In shining lamps of crystal hewn
Undimmed by cloud or shade of night
There shone for ever fair and bright.
There hammer on the anvil smote,
There chisel clove, and graver wrote;
There forged was blade, and bound was hilt;
The delver mined, the mason built.
There beryl, pearl, and opal pale,
And metal wrought like fishes' mail,
Buckler and corset, axe and sword,
And shining spears were laid in hoard.
Unwearied then was Durin's folk;
Beneath the mountains musik woke;
The harper harped, the minstrels sang,
And at the gates the trumpets rang.
The world was grey, the mountains old,
The forge's fire is ashen-cold;
No harp is wrung, no hammer falls;
The darkness dwells in Durin's halls;
The shadow lies upon his upon tomb
In Moria, in Khazâd-dûm.
But still the sunken stars appear
In dark and windless Mirrormere;
There lies his crown in water deep,
Till Durin wakes again from sleep.
I just love that poem
-
truehobbit
- Cute, cuddly and dangerous to know
- Posts: 6019
- Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 2:52 am
- Contact:
Eru, you can also download a free program called "switch", which lets you change all sound files into mp3s, which you can then share on a file-sharing website (see our "Amphitheater" in Bag End).
As to "silly", I think Tom's "silliness" isn't silly at all - it just appears silly to us who consider ourselves accomplished and worldly-wise and all that.
It's like it says about Tom's unintellegible sing-song, which in fact are words from an ancient language, "whose words were mainly those of wonder and surprise" - one of my favourite lines in the book - I think Tom isn't silly, he's just uncorrupted, and as such must appear silly to us.
The comparison to Parcival comes to mind, the "pure fool", who appears foolish to the world, but that's because his mind is unblemished by worldliness.
(Guess that all belongs in the Tom-thread, though.)
As to "silly", I think Tom's "silliness" isn't silly at all - it just appears silly to us who consider ourselves accomplished and worldly-wise and all that.
It's like it says about Tom's unintellegible sing-song, which in fact are words from an ancient language, "whose words were mainly those of wonder and surprise" - one of my favourite lines in the book - I think Tom isn't silly, he's just uncorrupted, and as such must appear silly to us.
The comparison to Parcival comes to mind, the "pure fool", who appears foolish to the world, but that's because his mind is unblemished by worldliness.
(Guess that all belongs in the Tom-thread, though.)
but being a cheerful hobbit he had not needed hope, as long as despair could be postponed.
I've lost count of the number of times I've read or listened to LOTR and I have made myself read each poem at least once. I just have no patience for poetry. If there's a story to tell, I'd rather see it told in narrative format. If there's no plot to it, it's a complete waste of time for me.superwizard wrote:I too read the Lord of the Rings the first few times skipping over the poery. Then I made myself read it once and include all the poems. After reading them I realized that they were pretty nice, just give them a chance that's all I'm saying
But that's just me. I know others like poetry, even if I can't understand what they see in it. It's like I'm colorblind or tone deaf. I'm poetrynulled.
Ath's post, mentioning her attention to the landscape descriptions, reminded me of something I've been thinking of for some time.
I think of the landscape as my favorite 'character' in the book. I was wondering if people think we are ready to begin a reading of LoTR together at HoF, and I thought if so, we might do so with a focus (but not an exclusive one, of course) on the landscape descriptions.
The fact is, when I'm reading LoTR, all comfortably settled with the map laid out for reference, I don't always jump up and go to the dictionary to look up a word. The result (along with the fact that I don't seem to be good at picturing things geographically) is that there are descriptive passages I've never entirely grasped because of certain elusive terms like 'wold', which I have been too lazy to go and look up at the moment of encountering them.
I don't really know how much there'd be to say about the landscape descriptions, but it might be fun to hear what impressions they evoke for others, and to help one another picture things logistically.
I'd be happy to hear what others think of this as a possibility. On the other hand, it might be best to hold off on a group read of LoTR until the Sil discussion is completed? I'm happy to defer to whatever Voronwë thinks is best in that regard.
(I hope it was ok to ask this here, it didn't seem to warrant a thread of its own.)
I think of the landscape as my favorite 'character' in the book. I was wondering if people think we are ready to begin a reading of LoTR together at HoF, and I thought if so, we might do so with a focus (but not an exclusive one, of course) on the landscape descriptions.
The fact is, when I'm reading LoTR, all comfortably settled with the map laid out for reference, I don't always jump up and go to the dictionary to look up a word.
The result (along with the fact that I don't seem to be good at picturing things geographically) is that there are descriptive passages I've never entirely grasped because of certain elusive terms like 'wold', which I have been too lazy to go and look up at the moment of encountering them.I don't really know how much there'd be to say about the landscape descriptions, but it might be fun to hear what impressions they evoke for others, and to help one another picture things logistically.
I'd be happy to hear what others think of this as a possibility. On the other hand, it might be best to hold off on a group read of LoTR until the Sil discussion is completed? I'm happy to defer to whatever Voronwë thinks is best in that regard.
(I hope it was ok to ask this here, it didn't seem to warrant a thread of its own.)