Is LOTR 'Round World From the Beginning'?

[Athrabeth]

All of this works with the established Mythology. The changes are minor. With respect to Ath, the concept of an Aman-centric world sucking all hope towards it are her own devising and not Tolkiens. Attaching the sea-longing to a desire for Aman is extrapolation in the extreme

Where did I say that Aman "sucks all hope towards it"?

I said that the world being taken away from Aman is a loss for the world. It represents a final sundering of the Powers of the World from the world they created. It represents the most drastic consequence of Arda's marring (besides the fear of death for Men). It represents the end of the certainty of a divine presence within Eä and the beginning of the faith, often tenuous, that somewhere, somehow there remains a connection between the heavenly and the earthly.

As for the Sea-longing, I really don't believe I'm "extrapolating to the extreme". We discussed this topic in Teremia's thread over at TORC, and I wrote then:

From my very first reading, this deeply profound feeling that Tolkien was able to instil with his subtle and mysterious references to the “pull” of the Sea has always been present. I remember distinctly the impact I felt at Sam’s words at the beginning of the book:
"They are sailing, sailing, sailing over the Sea, they are going into the West and leaving us."
It sounds unsettlingly close to a dirge, doesn't it? And yet, now I see it as essential to “setting the mood” as well as “setting the stage” for a tale about endings, and that which is beyond endings.

To me, the "Sea longing" is symbolic of both losing and gaining, leaving and returning, and yes, even death and renewal. There is a simple taoist saying: "You cannot gain one thing without giving up another." Is this really not at the heart of the bittersweetness of Frodo's departure? Of what makes Galadriel's lament at once both beautiful and sad? Of why we somehow know that the "sigh and murmer of waves on the shores of Middle-earth" that Sam carries in his heart will be the source of his greatest hope and his deepest pain? Is this not, as well, closely akin to the sorrow and the hope that Aragorn speaks of before he "gives back the Gift"?

That, in longing to leave Middle-earth, one can still love it deeply, that the leaving is not triggered by fear or loathing or bleak despair, but by the more gentle burdens of Time and the unavoidable weariness it lays upon body and soul, is, I believe, an extremely important foundation of the story. Legolas is “troubled” by what the gulls have stirred in his heart, not because it is compelling him to leave (as his companions misinterpret), but because it has awakened him to the realization that he, like us, like all beings tied to Time, must face some sort of ending, and one day bid farewell to that which is known and loved, that which is precious.

The desire for Aman is the desire for rest, for healing, for renewal. It is the desire for a haven from the weariness and sorrows of the world. The desire for Aman is the desire for the certainty that an ending does not mean "the end".

Please, without resorting to vague concepts of the "axis mundi", explain to me where this concept could not work with the established works of Tolkien.

Al, I think this concept would work for the greater part of the myth. Ulmo's role, I believe, would have to be significantly altered as his "dwelling place" would not fit a round world construct. Arda itself, I would argue, becomes more "ordinary" when the unique integrated workings of the spherical cosmos are lost (all those substances that are not "of the earth" and yet connect the earth with all the other realms of Eä). And the Straight Path would not be a memory of the world, a road remembered in the "collective consciousness" of its inhabitants.

And BTW, I don't think the concept of axis mundi is at all vague. It is a central idea to most of the myths and religions of the world. It is why certain hills and mountains and trees and rivers are considered sacred places, or portals to enlightenment. It is Mt. Olympus and Mt. Fuji, it is Stonehenge and Teotihuacán, it is the Tree of Life and the vaulted Dome of the Rock. The Sil and LOTR are liberally peppered with symbolic representations of the axis mundi, from Cerin Amroth to Meneltarma to Valinor, reflecting, I believe, Tolkien's deep understanding of an inherent, if subconscious, human understanding of these mythological symbols.



*edited because of a second thought (or two)

[Voronwë the Faithful]

(I think I may need to start a separate thread about Sea-longing. After all, it is integral to my namesake's character.)

[scirocco]

It's all kind of ironic, isn't it. We'll happily accept the Primary Myth (that of Middle-earth) without batting an eyelid, but should anyone suggest a Secondary Myth within that Primary one, that's just not on:

I will not give up the Two Trees, regardless of what anyone has to say about them - not on your life!

You wouldn't have to, Mith, they'd just become Mithical, (sorry, couldn't resist! :D)

I think it's absolutely pivotal to the myth that Valinor remains exactly where it was always located within the cosmos of Eä. It is not moved away from the experiential realm of the world - the world is moved away from it...

Funny, I could have sworn I read the exact opposite in Appendix A (of LOTR, if we might come back to it for a moment):

Númenor was thrown down and swallowed in the Sea, and the Undying Lands were removed for ever from the circles of the world...

Appendix A, LOTR

No doubt you'll have an "extrapolation" for that as well.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

scirocco, I noticed you didn't answer my questions (though you do make a good point).

But (speaking only for myself) I think one needs to go beyond the plain meaning of the words that you quote (which, after all, are part of a brief synopsis that Tolkien created for the Appendix under duress). When I look at those words (and the similar words that appear in the Akkallabeth, and I think about them further, it seems clear to me that the undying lands were removed from the circles of the world by the means of the change that was made to the world itself, meaning Middle-earth. It was Middle-earth that was changed, and made round, and straight path removed from the world:

For Iluvator cast back the Great Seas west of Middle-earth, and the Empty Lands east of it, and new lands and new seas were made; and the world was diminished, for Valinor and Eressëa were taken from it into the realm of hidden things.

It seems utterly clear to me that it was the Middle-earth that was changed, and that Undying Lands remained intact:

Thus in after days, what by the voyages of ships, what by lore and starcraft, the kings of Men knew that the world was indeed made round, and yet the Eldar were permitted still to depart and to come to the Ancient West and to Avallónë, if they would. Therefore the loremasters of Men said that a Straight Road must still be, for those that were permitted to find it. And they thought that, while the new world fell away, the old road and the path of the memory of the West still went on, as it were a mighty bridge invisible invisible that passed through the air of breath and of flighty (which were bent now as the world was bent), and traversed Ilmen which flesh unaided cannot endure, until it came to Tol Eressëa, the Lonely Isle, and maybe even beyond, to Valinor, where the Valar still dwell and watch the unfolding of the story of the world. And tales and rumours arose along the shores of the sea concerning mariners and men forlorn upon the water who, by some fate or grace or favour of the Valor, had entered in upon the Straight Way and seen the face of the world sink below them and so had come to the lamplit quays of Avallónë, or verily to the last beaches on the margin of Aman, and there had looked upon the White Mountain, dreadful and beautiful, before they died.

In any rate, to me the important point is not so much whether Valinor was removed from the Earth, or the Earth was removed from Valinor. The important points to me are the ones that Athrabeth made before, which I repeat again:

The great, overriding theme IMHO of the myth that connects the Sil and LOTR is loss: death and immortality, "embalming" and preserving, fading and renewing, the long defeat, hope without guarantee....all are tied to this central idea. ...

... the world being taken away from Aman is a loss for the world. It represents a final sundering of the Powers of the World from the world they created. It represents the most drastic consequence of Arda's marring (besides the fear of death for Men). It represents the end of the certainty of a divine presence within Eä and the beginning of the faith, often tenuous, that somewhere, somehow there remains a connection between the heavenly and the earthly.

That is what would be lost were the stories of the Silmarillion to be relegated to mere unenlightened myth. And a great loss it would be, in my mind, robbing Tolkien's work of that which makes it most powerful.

On the tangential subject which we have touched upon in this thread (and which for Alatar's sake I will not try to split off into another thread ), I now believe that where Christopher Tolkien went wrong was in removing from the texts that he used to create the published Silmarillion the framework that already existed. One thing that has become clear to me in my thread about the creation of that work is that in many instances, CT removed references to these tales being told to Ælfwine on Tol Eressëa. I think that CT should have embraced the idea that Ælfwine was one of those mortals who found the straight road, rather then remove it from the circles of the tale.

[Athrabeth]

It's all kind of ironic, isn't it. We'll happily accept the Primary Myth (that of Middle-earth) without batting an eyelid, but should anyone suggest a Secondary Myth within that Primary one, that's just not on

I'm sorry, scirroco, but I don't quite understand what you're saying here. Are you referring to the 'Sun and Moon/Round World From the Beginning' theory that you put forward, or Alatar's 'Round World From the Beginning', or both? I said that that I thought the latter could fit within the context of the "Primary Myth", but with some (IMO) diminishment of key symbolic elements. The former proposal just doesn't (again IMO) fit at all within the Primary Myth. It would preclude, absolutely, the key symbolic elements that direct the narrative. It is not a Secondary Myth, it's another myth altogether.

I think it's absolutely pivotal to the myth that Valinor remains exactly where it was always located within the cosmos of Eä. It is not moved away from the experiential realm of the world - the world is moved away from it...

Funny, I could have sworn I read the exact opposite in Appendix A (of LOTR, if we might come back to it for a moment):

Númenor was thrown down and swallowed in the Sea, and the Undying Lands were removed for ever from the circles of the world...

Appendix A, LOTR

No doubt you'll have an "extrapolation" for that as well.

Well, first of all, what's the point of "bending the world" in order for Aman to be lost from its surface? I mean, if Aman could just be zapped out of the realm of "the flat earth", why go to all that bother of making the world round? I don't know whether it's extrapolation or not, but I've always understood that the bending of the world is what causes Aman to be lost.

Therefore the loremasters of Men said that a Straight Road must still be, for those that were permitted to find it. And they taught that, while the new world fell away, the old road and the path of the memory of the West still went on, as it were a mighty bridge invisible that passed through the air of breath and the of flight (which were bent now as the world was bent) and traversed Ilmen which flesh unaided cannot endure, until it came to Tol Eressëa, the Lonely Isle, and maybe even beyond, to Valinor, where the Valar still dwell and watch the unfolding of the story of the world.

*I just saw that Voronwë used the same quote while I was composing this, but I'm going to keep it anyway.......because....... *

Now, to me, the idea of a "Straight Road", an "old road", "a path of memory" that "still went on" conveys that it is neither the road nor the destination that has changed position. Both are where they've always been......they just can't be found anymore.


*edited to add this quote from Letter #325, written in 1971:

The 'immortals' who were permitted to leave Middle-earth and seek Aman...set sail in ships specially made and hallowed for this voyage, and steered due West towards the ancient site of these lands. They set out after sundown; but if any keen-eyed observer from that shore had watched one of these ships he might have seen that it never became hull-down but dwindled only by distance until it vanished in the twilight: it followed the straight road to the true West and not the bent road of the earth's surface. As it vanished it left the physical world.

It just occured to me that in a "round world from the beginning" myth, the "road" to Aman would have always been "bent", and so a "straight path" would be something wholly new, not an "old road" at all.

[superwizard]

Thus in after days, what by the voyages of ships, what by lore and starcraft, the kings of Men knew that the world was indeed made round, and yet the Eldar were permitted still to depart and to come to the Ancient West and to Avallónë, if they would. Therefore the loremasters of Men said that a Straight Road must still be, for those that were permitted to find it. And they thought that, while the new world fell away, the old road and the path of the memory of the West still went on, as it were a mighty bridge invisible invisible that passed through the air of breath and of flighty (which were bent now as the world was bent), and traversed Ilmen which flesh unaided cannot endure, until it came to Tol Eressëa, the Lonely Isle, and maybe even beyond, to Valinor, where the Valar still dwell and watch the unfolding of the story of the world. And tales and rumours arose along the shores of the sea concerning mariners and men forlorn upon the water who, by some fate or grace or favour of the Valor, had entered in upon the Straight Way and seen the face of the world sink below them and so had come to the lamplit quays of Avallónë, or verily to the last beaches on the margin of Aman, and there had looked upon the White Mountain, dreadful and beautiful, before they died.

That paragraph is the main reason I believe that world was flat at the beggining.
I have to ask however, how can someone accept elves and dwarves and ents but when it comes to having a flat world they go up in arms?

[Alatar]

SW, there's no question but that the "Flat World" Mythos is the accepted reality. The discussion here (I think) is whether it could have worked just as well with a round world. I believe it could, and would be improved by that concept. Others disagree.

[Parmamaite]

What is the improvement, Alatar?

To me, the main problems of the original cosmogeny are:
1) Varda arranging the Sickle of the Valar to encourage the elves. Knowing the size of stars, that is an impossible feat and way beyond the scope of a Vala (they're powerful, but not omnipotent).
2) The Sun is a flower of a tree that grew on Earth? How is that possible when the Sun is about 1.000.000 times as big as Earth itself?
3) Eärendil sails the night sky with a Silmaril on his brow: This is the planet Venus.

I can live with these inconsistencies. I don't think they can be satisfactorily explained away.

Your Round World scenario is consistent and applicable to most of Tolkien's writings, but it just doesn't help explain the above mentioned problems.

It's been some time since I read "Myths Transformed", but AFAIR Tolkien change his myths into a Sun-centered Astronomy. Do you have any source for your idea of a round Arda and the Sun created later?

[Sassafras]

I've just finished reading this section for the first time. My first impression is of a terrible jumble of ideas .... attempts really, to rectify the flat earth scenario. Melkor stains the Sun and later creates and maintains a great cloud to shut out all light after the death of the Trees ... Valinor is under a dome ... the march of the Elder are through great rains ... I need to read it a few more times for it to make any sense at all.

CT wrote:

Doubt and lack of certain directions are very strongly conveyed as he wrestled with the intractable problems posed by the presence of the Sun in the sky under which the Elves awoke, which was lit only by stars.

Myths Transformed.
Text II

The making of the Sun and the Moon must occur long before the coming of the Elves; and cannot be made to be after the death of the Two Trees -- if that occurred in any connexion with the sojourn of the Noldor in Valinor. The time allowed is too short. Neither could there be woods and flowers etc. on earth, if there had been no light since the overthrow of the Lamps!

<snip>

....Arda is, more or less, an island in the void 'amidst innumerable stars'. The Sun should be coeval with Earth, though its relative size need not be considered.

<snip>

This period will, roughly, correspond to a supposed primeval epoch before the Earth became habitable. A time of fire and cataclysm. Melkor disarrayed the Sun so that at periods it was too hot, and at others too cold.

<snip>

The Valar to counteract this make the Moon.

....Erm, I think I'm quite happy with the flat earth cosmology. Too much is dependant upon it. A round world would change almost everything ... and not for the better, I suspect.

[Primula Baggins]

This period will, roughly, correspond to a supposed primeval epoch before the Earth became habitable. A time of fire and cataclysm. Melkor disarrayed the Sun so that at periods it was too hot, and at others too cold.

<snip>

The Valar to counteract this make the Moon.

This just struck me—maybe the context isn't right, but the way it sounds.

It seems likely that life would not be able to evolve or survive on a world without a big moon like ours. They've discovered that without a moon to stabilize it, a planet's axis tends to swing around wildly, so there's no constancy of seasons and for long periods big pieces of the world have no sunlight for half the year and constant sunlight for the other half. Burning heat or frozen darkness.

[Alatar]

What is the improvement, Alatar?

To me, the main problems of the original cosmogeny are:
1) Varda arranging the Sickle of the Valar to encourage the elves. Knowing the size of stars, that is an impossible feat and way beyond the scope of a Vala (they're powerful, but not omnipotent).
2) The Sun is a flower of a tree that grew on Earth? How is that possible when the Sun is about 1.000.000 times as big as Earth itself?
3) Eärendil sails the night sky with a Silmaril on his brow: This is the planet Venus.

I can live with these inconsistencies. I don't think they can be satisfactorily explained away.

Your Round World scenario is consistent and applicable to most of Tolkien's writings, but it just doesn't help explain the above mentioned problems.

It's been some time since I read "Myths Transformed", but AFAIR Tolkien change his myths into a Sun-centered Astronomy. Do you have any source for your idea of a round Arda and the Sun created later?

Parma, I'm not suggesting a Solar System. I'm suggesting basically the entire flat world mythology as it stands except with a globe instead of a Pizza. That's all.

And none of this is supported anywhere in Tolkiens writings. It's just my explanation of a premise that I personally believe works with the existing mythology without having the Flat Earth concept.

[Rowanberry]

Remember, we're dealing with mythology here, not with science.

Sure, in reality, nothing could have started to grow without a source of light and warmth like the Sun, and I'm also familiar with the importance of the Moon for the evolution of life. Sure, now we all know that a globe is the only possible form for this planet. But, I have no problems with accepting such things as a flat Earth, or growth of vegetation in nothing but starlight, as parts of a mythology.

Not all changes that Tolkien made in his mythology were for the better.

[Alatar]

Where did I say that Aman "sucks all hope towards it"?

I'm paraphrasing. Thats how your description read to me.

As for the Sea-longing, I really don't believe I'm "extrapolating to the extreme". We discussed this topic in Teremia's thread over at TORC, and I wrote then:

From my very first reading, this deeply profound feeling that Tolkien was able to instil with his subtle and mysterious references to the “pull” of the Sea has always been present. I remember distinctly the impact I felt at Sam’s words at the beginning of the book:
"They are sailing, sailing, sailing over the Sea, they are going into the West and leaving us."
It sounds unsettlingly close to a dirge, doesn't it? And yet, now I see it as essential to “setting the mood” as well as “setting the stage” for a tale about endings, and that which is beyond endings.

To me, the "Sea longing" is symbolic of both losing and gaining, leaving and returning, and yes, even death and renewal. There is a simple taoist saying: "You cannot gain one thing without giving up another." Is this really not at the heart of the bittersweetness of Frodo's departure? Of what makes Galadriel's lament at once both beautiful and sad? Of why we somehow know that the "sigh and murmer of waves on the shores of Middle-earth" that Sam carries in his heart will be the source of his greatest hope and his deepest pain? Is this not, as well, closely akin to the sorrow and the hope that Aragorn speaks of before he "gives back the Gift"?

That, in longing to leave Middle-earth, one can still love it deeply, that the leaving is not triggered by fear or loathing or bleak despair, but by the more gentle burdens of Time and the unavoidable weariness it lays upon body and soul, is, I believe, an extremely important foundation of the story. Legolas is “troubled” by what the gulls have stirred in his heart, not because it is compelling him to leave (as his companions misinterpret), but because it has awakened him to the realization that he, like us, like all beings tied to Time, must face some sort of ending, and one day bid farewell to that which is known and loved, that which is precious.

The desire for Aman is the desire for rest, for healing, for renewal. It is the desire for a haven from the weariness and sorrows of the world. The desire for Aman is the desire for the certainty that an ending does not
mean "the end".

I disagree strongly with tieing the sea-longing to Valinor. The sea longing is related to the music of Ulmo. Why would any hobbit feel the pull to Valinor?

Al, I think this concept would work for the greater part of the myth. Ulmo's role, I believe, would have to be significantly altered as his "dwelling place" would not fit a round world construct.

I don't see any need to change Ulmos role in any way. Ulmo's "Dwelling Place" is the Ocean and all running water. As a God, any tributary or well is tied to him. How is that changed in a Round world?

And BTW, I don't think the concept of axis mundi is at all vague. It is a central idea to most of the myths and religions of the world. It is why certain hills and mountains and trees and rivers are considered sacred places, or portals to enlightenment. It is Mt. Olympus and Mt. Fuji, it is Stonehenge and Teotihuacán, it is the Tree of Life and the vaulted Dome of the Rock. The Sil and LOTR are liberally peppered with symbolic representations of the axis mundi, from Cerin Amroth to Meneltarma to Valinor, reflecting, I believe, Tolkien's deep understanding of an inherent, if subconscious, human understanding of these mythological symbols.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one, because I think it's a vague, nebulous concept and not supported in the writing. You are, of course, welcome to disagree.

[Parmamaite]

What is the improvement, Alatar?

To me, the main problems of the original cosmogeny are:
1) Varda arranging the Sickle of the Valar to encourage the elves. Knowing the size of stars, that is an impossible feat and way beyond the scope of a Vala (they're powerful, but not omnipotent).
2) The Sun is a flower of a tree that grew on Earth? How is that possible when the Sun is about 1.000.000 times as big as Earth itself?
3) Eärendil sails the night sky with a Silmaril on his brow: This is the planet Venus.

I can live with these inconsistencies. I don't think they can be satisfactorily explained away.

Your Round World scenario is consistent and applicable to most of Tolkien's writings, but it just doesn't help explain the above mentioned problems.

It's been some time since I read "Myths Transformed", but AFAIR Tolkien change his myths into a Sun-centered Astronomy. Do you have any source for your idea of a round Arda and the Sun created later?

Parma, I'm not suggesting a Solar System. I'm suggesting basically the entire flat world mythology as it stands except with a globe instead of a Pizza. That's all.

And none of this is supported anywhere in Tolkiens writings. It's just my explanation of a premise that I personally believe works with the existing mythology without having the Flat Earth concept.

I understand what you're proposing, but I don't understand why. As you say yourself it's not supported in Tolkien's writings, and I fail to see why a flat earth is such an unacceptable idea. Simply changing the pizza to a football and keeping the rest, doesn't make the mythology any more credible IMHO.

[Alatar]

I understand what you're proposing, but I don't understand why. As you say yourself it's not supported in Tolkien's writings, and I fail to see why a flat earth is such an unacceptable idea. Simply changing the pizza to a football and keeping the rest, doesn't make the mythology any more credible IMHO.

It's a personal thing Parma. I'm not expecting everyone to agree with me, just to accept that its a valid alternative.

Why can I accept everything else and not the Flat Earth? I don't know. All the rest have a power and beauty, but the Pizza just feels silly. It's like the singing Eagles in Lord of the Rings, or the sentient fox. I can ignore them, but I can't accept them with the same sense of reality that I can with the others.

Does that make sense?

One of the things that makes Lord of the Rings special to me is how real it feels. It's not some fantasy land with white unicorns and winged fairies. Every now and then some things threaten that reality. The fox, the singing eagles, the flat earth, these are dealbreakers for me. I just can't accept them, so I ignore them.

As such, to me, Middle-earth is as I described above. Its my personal version of Middle-earth and everything written works with it, even though I know it's not what Tolkien intended. I'm just trying to explain my perspective. I know it's not canon. I just wish it were.

[superwizard]

It's a personal thing Parma. I'm not expecting everyone to agree with me, just to accept that its a valid alternative.

I don't think you will have much trouble convincing people that its a valid theory but as you said I don't think you'll get much supportors who actually believe in it IMO.

One of the things that makes Lord of the Rings special to me is how real it feels. It's not some fantasy land with white unicorns and winged fairies. Every now and then some things threaten that reality. The fox, the singing eagles, the flat earth, these are dealbreakers for me. I just can't accept them, so I ignore them.

Why do you ingnore the fox and the singing eagles? The hobbit had a whole chapter of talking wolves and many things make less sense than a thinking fox. And The Eagles are not ordinary eagles that we know. They are a race of themselves that should not even be compared to a common bird. I see The Eagles as just another race like The Dwarves and The Elves, The Eagles can talk and think just like we can. If you look at it this way I don't think you would need to ignore them.

[Athrabeth]

I disagree strongly with tieing the sea-longing to Valinor. The sea longing is related to the music of Ulmo. Why would any hobbit feel the pull to Valinor?

Alatar.......it's what Valinor symbolizes within the human heart. You obviously don't get or don't agree with what I wrote about that. Fine.

*sigh*

We obviously see Tolkien's works from very different perspectives.

I don't see any need to change Ulmos role in any way. Ulmo's "Dwelling Place" is the Ocean and all running water. As a God, any tributary or well is tied to him. How is that changed in a Round world?

Ulmo's dwelling place is not the Ocean. It is "the deeps of the world"......it's actually Ilmen below Ambar, which is connected to all the waters of the Earth.

Why can I accept everything else and not the Flat Earth? I don't know. All the rest have a power and beauty, but the Pizza just feels silly

The diagram that Tolkien drew looks nothing like "a pizza" or a disc of any kind. Ambar has real depth......it is not "flat" at all.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one, because I think it's a vague, nebulous concept and not supported in the writing

Alatar, symbolic representations of axis mundi are throughout Tolkien's writings, believe me, as are many other common mythological icons and themes. When speaking of the mythological foundations of his writings, I think it's beneficial to consider them in relation to a very solid body of study regarding the substance and structure of myth. It's actually a fascinating undertaking.

[Alatar]

I disagree strongly with tieing the sea-longing to Valinor. The sea longing is related to the music of Ulmo. Why would any hobbit feel the pull to Valinor?

Alatar.......it's what Valinor symbolizes within the human heart. You obviously don't get or don't agree with what I wrote about that. Fine.

*sigh*

We obviously see Tolkien's works from very different perspectives.

I get it, I just don't agree with it. Valinor means nothing to Hobbits. Most of them are unaware of its existence. Yet they feel the sea longing. They are seperate and distinct. I believe you are reading into this a connection that you wish to see but which simply does not exist.

Ulmo's dwelling place is not the Ocean. It is "the deeps of the world"......it's actually Ilmen below Ambar, which is connected to all the waters of the Earth.

Ah, but now you're using the "proof" to prove itself. There is nothing in the Sil or LotR about Ilmen or Ambar. Tolkien simply refers to the deeps which most believe to refer to the ocean. Nothing in the published writings depends on Ilmen or Ambar. If you were to ask a thousand Tolkien fans where Ulmo lived, those who had heard of him would say "the Ocean". Perhaps one in a thousand might make your distinction.

The diagram that Tolkien drew looks nothing like "a pizza" or a disc of any kind. Ambar has real depth......it is not "flat" at all.

There is no diagram of the flat earth in the Silmarillion or LotR, which is what I'm discussing. All that is described is a flat earth. The logical interpretation, based on common knowledge, would be the Pizza look. What would inspire us to imagine the diagram you reference?

Alatar, symbolic representations of axis mundi are throughout Tolkien's writings, believe me, as are many other common mythological icons and themes. When speaking of the mythological foundations of his writings, I think it's beneficial to consider them in relation to a very solid body of study regarding the substance and structure of myth. It's actually a fascinating undertaking.

I prefer to let my arguments stand on their own merits.

[Athrabeth]

Valinor means nothing to Hobbits. Most of them are unaware of its existence. Yet they feel the sea longing. They are seperate and distinct.

Hobbits are generally disinterested in the sea, even wary of it, I believe. Only Frodo and Sam seem to have this mysterious, personal response to the Sea, not all Hobbits. That should tell you something right there, IMO.

So, what is the Sea-longing in your opinion? Why is it associated with going into the west (I mean, why not north or south)? What do the echoes of the Music tell the hearts of those who listen?

Nothing in the published writings depends on Ilmen or Ambar

Not overtly, no. But they are essential parts to what Tolkien envisioned as the physical cosmic struture of his tales. Like the hidden foundations of a great tower, they support the myth. Without them, even Tolkien himself found it difficult to reconstruct the powerful themes he wanted to wrap within his writings. When I first read the Ambarkanta, that is what I found so delightful......finding those hidden foundations and in doing so, discovering new aspects and deeper understanding of Tolkien's works. Obviously this was far from your experience. As said before, we must see Tolkien's works from very different perspectives, Alatar.

There is no diagram of the flat earth in the Silmarillion or LotR, which is what I'm discussing.

Fine. I didn't realize that there were such constraints on the discussion.

[Alatar]

Hobbits are generally disinterested in the sea, even wary of it, I believe. Only Frodo and Sam seem to have this mysterious, personal response to the Sea, not all Hobbits. That should tell you something right there, IMO.

So, what is the Sea-longing in your opinion? Why is it associated with going into the west (I mean, why not north or south)? What do the echoes of the Music tell the hearts of those who listen?

Well, the sea is primarily to the West... I would have though that was obvious enough. To me the sea longing is the echo of the music of the Ainur that is held in water. Even Hobbits can feel that connection because it relates to them as much as any other living thing. Valinor has no such attraction for a hobbit.

Not overtly, no. But they are essential parts to what Tolkien envisioned as the physical cosmic struture of his tales. Like the hidden foundations of a great tower, they support the myth. Without them, even Tolkien himself found it difficult to reconstruct the powerful themes he wanted to wrap within his writings. When I first read the Ambarkanta, that is what I found so delightful......finding those hidden foundations and in doing so, discovering new aspects and deeper understanding of Tolkien's works. Obviously this was far from your experience. As said before, we must see Tolkien's works from very different perspectives, Alatar.

I think so, because what I see here is Tolkien building his foundations after the house. In some way trying to make them work. I don't belive the foundations were there when the Myths were written, but rather an attempt to rationalise them after the fact.

There is no diagram of the flat earth in the Silmarillion or LotR, which is what I'm discussing.

Fine. I didn't realize that there were such constraints on the discussion.

I'm not attempting to constrain the discussion, merely to explain that I'm working from the published works. Much of what Christopher chose to publish is little more than doodlings and idle concepts. In other cases they are wholly inaccurate. In others, rejected drafts. How could we discuss Aragorn the returned king of Gondor in terms of a hobbit in wooden shoes?

All I'm saying is that The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion are equally powerful whether Middle-earth is a Pizza, A Ball or puddle of goo. It's not tied to an abstract doodle that Christopher may or may not have pulled from the wastepaper basket.

Yet you seem to suggest that not buying into every aspect of this diagram somehow means that I'm missing the "foundations" of the story. These "foundations" are nothing more than abstract constructs that JRRT may well have rejected out of hand. We can theorise as much as we like about what he might or might now have meant, but he must stand or fall on what was published.