The Istari Revisited

Seeking knowledge in, of, and about Middle-earth.
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scirocco
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Post by scirocco »

axordil wrote:You could construct a truth table with those two, Gandalf, and Tom Bombadil to describe the various possibilities for what happens to Ainu who spend a long time amidst mortality.
Except that Tom wasn't an Ainu. :D:D

We need HOF's first "What was Tom Bombadil" thread! C'mon, you can't be a proper Tolkien message-board without one! :D:D:D
axordil wrote:Some of the background material is fine, but how seriously are we to look at something that includes Strider's predecessor, the hobbit with wooden shoes? There is much in HoME that is plainly at odds with what actually got published, which makes all of it suspect in my estimate. It boils down to author's notes, primarily on dead ends. Roughly 20% of it could have been ethically published...as it is it's really exploitation by CJRT, whether he is capable of seeing it or not...
I can't agree with that. CT's primary goal was not just to regurgitate his fathers early drafts, but to show how each version morphed into the next. Really, it should have been called "A History of the Writing of Middle-earth" or something. Why should we not be permitted to see those early versions? Sure, they're of academic interest only, and don't reflect the final published version, but what's wrong with that? I don't read them every day but they're interesting in their way. But, more importantly, those successive waves of revision show how Tolkien's ideas and beliefs changed over the years, from the highly descriptive and literal "purple prose" of his twenties and thirties, to the grave, powerful and spare words of an older and more mature man. Why should the revealing of this be called exploitation and denied to us?
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Actually, it was one of our first threads:
There can never be enough Bombadil!

But there is a lot more that can (and should) be said, so please have at it!
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Post by Alatar »

scirocco wrote:
axordil wrote:You could construct a truth table with those two, Gandalf, and Tom Bombadil to describe the various possibilities for what happens to Ainu who spend a long time amidst mortality.
Except that Tom wasn't an Ainu. :D:D
Unless he was Manwë :devil:
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Post by superwizard »

Now why in the world would you think he was Manwë???/:?
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Post by Inanna »

scirocco!!!!!! HI!! :D
Athrabeth wrote: Firstly, I think Radagast's fate could be seen as a kind of "fall". He disconnects from the Children of Ilúvatar and stops walking their path.


But I often feel that Radagast being a Maiar of Yavanna, probably did what was in Yavanna's heart - focusing on the plants and animals of Middle-Earth.
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Post by axordil »

Actually, I've come to think of Tom as Ainu-without-portfolio, that is, neither Vala nor Maia but just kind of there.

In the Music, I think he was whistling. :D
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Mahima wrote:scirocco!!!!!! HI!! :D
Athrabeth wrote: Firstly, I think Radagast's fate could be seen as a kind of "fall". He disconnects from the Children of Ilúvatar and stops walking their path.


But I often feel that Radagast being a Maiar of Yavanna, probably did what was in Yavanna's heart - focusing on the plants and animals of Middle-Earth.
I tend to agree with you, Mahima. I've often thought that Radagast got a bit of a bad rap. If he failed in his task, then I think the Valar really have to take a big part of the blame, for sending the wrong "person" for the "job". Thinking about the point you make, Mahima, really emphasizes that point. I think about Yavanna's reaction to Aulë telling her (in Chapter Two of the Silmarillion) that the Children of Eru were going to have dominion over her realm. Her main concern was not for the Children, it was for the olvar and the kelvar - the plants and animals that you reference. So it does makes sense that a Maia associated with her would be the same.
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Post by Whistler »

Tom was Eru!

Discuss.
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Post by Jnyusa »

Tom was not Eru.

I'm done discussin' =:)

Seriously, I really do continue to think that the best analysis of Tom was the one done by Steuard Jensen. Tom stands in a category by himself as personification of Middle Earth itself.

Jensen considers the Maiar hypothesis, Vala by Vala, and rejects it for reasons I found completely convincing.

Jn

eta: it is possible, I think, that Goldberry could have been a Maia, but not Tom.
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Post by Whistler »

You see? This is why I avoid these in-depth discussions. People just make fun of my ideas.
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Post by Jnyusa »

Well, Voronwë likes the "splinter of Eru" idea.

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Post by Primula Baggins »

You're just before your time, Whistler.

They're not ready to hear you.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
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Post by Old_Tom_Bombadil »

axordil wrote:In the Music, I think he was whistling. :D
Ha, somebody must have told you! :D

Well, I was whistling. Camptown Races if you must know, except I was singing the "Doo-da" parts.

:whistle:

Doo-da, Doo-da

:whistle:

Oh, de doo-da day


That's a rather catchy tune if I do say so myself. ;)
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Jnyusa wrote:Well, Voronwë likes the "splinter of Eru" idea.

Jn
Indeed I do. As I have said before, I do not believe that Bombadil shared in the duality of body (hröar) and spirit (fëar) that the Children of Eru experience. I believe that he was a pure material manifestation of Eru.

As Imp put it,
And there is this: if Tom is the song, or a part of the song, or the echo of the song, then Tom existed before Arda as well as being a very part of the fabric of Arda. Tom embodies the natural world, but he also is ageless, without beginning or end. What a curious idea that is! A splinter of Eru, in fact.
Yes, exactly. A splinter of Eru. He embodies the natural world because there is no "I" between him and the natural world. He is "one with the natural world" because his spirit is not separate from his material body.

To bring the discussion back to the Istari (after all, this is the Istari thread, not the Bombadil thread), an apt comparison is with Saruman. Tolkien came to consider Bombadil as a symbol of "pure science" -- of understanding nature for the sake of understanding only, not for any practical purpose. As he wrote in Letter 153
he is then an 'allegory', or an exemplar, a particular embodying of pure (real) natural science: the spirit that desires knowledge of other things, their history and nature, because they are 'other' and wholly independent of the enquiring mind, , a spirit coeval with the rational mind, and entirely unconcerned with 'doing' anything with the knowledge: Zoology and Botany not Cattle-breeding or Agriculture.
Saruman is of course the diametric opposite of this: he is the symbol of using science for the manipulation of nature in the name of "progress," something that Tolkien thought was a very bad thing.

But on a more fundamental level, Saruman, like all of the Istari, contrasts with Bombadil in that they accepted the duality of body and spirit when they came to Middle-earth and adopted the forms that they did. And consider this: Tolkien says that of the Istari, all but one failed. In adopting forms that were part of the substance of Arda, the Istari's souls became subject to the corruption of Arda Marred. And consider this further: the hröar of the only one of the Istari that succeeded (arguably at least), Olórin, had to die before he could succeed. As Tolkien stated in Letter 156:
He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back -- for a brief time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'.
So there we have it. Tolkien tries to tell us that he meant "naked" literally, but I don't believe it. If Bombadil was a pure material "splinter of Eru" as Imp put it, then Gandalf the White came back from death as a pure spiritual "splinter of Eru".
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Post by Old_Tom_Bombadil »

Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:To bring the discussion back to the Istari (after all, this is the Istari thread, not the Bombadil thread), an apt comparison is with Saruman. Tolkien came to consider Bombadil as a symbol of "pure science" -- of understanding nature for the sake of understanding only, not for any practical purpose. As he wrote in Letter 153
he is then an 'allegory', or an exemplar, a particular embodying of pure (real) natural science: the spirit that desires knowledge of other things, their history and nature, because they are 'other' and wholly independent of the enquiring mind, , a spirit coeval with the rational mind, and entirely unconcerned with 'doing' anything with the knowledge: Zoology and Botany not Cattle-breeding or Agriculture.
V, I like your juxtaposition of Bombadil and Saruman as opposites. I also find the theory that Bombadil's hröa and fëa were inseparable very interesting. However, where you say "pure science" I believe you should have said "pure natural science" as Tolkien did. I think the natural aspect of Bombadil cannot be understated. I would quote a number of passages that are probably familiar to us all to illustrate that statement, but I fear that might further lead this thread into a discussion of Bombadil when it more properly belongs to the Istari.
Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:Tolkien tries to tell us that he meant "naked" literally, but I don't believe it.
I really wish you'd expound upon that comment. Are you saying that you believe Gandalf's fëa was sent back naked, i.e., "houseless" or without hröa? Did he then re-house his old body? If that is so, why then did his fëa leave it to begin with? Wasn't it destroyed (or at least no longer functional)? Did Eru "fix" his old body? Or was a new one left there on the mountain top for him? I suppose those questions cannot be answered with absolute certainty (unless someone knows where Tolkien stated it unambiguously), but I'd be interested to hear some theories (supported by Tolkien's writings, of course).
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Old_Tom_Bombadil wrote:However, where you say "pure science" I believe you should have said "pure natural science" as Tolkien did. I think the natural aspect of Bombadil cannot be understated.
Yes, I fully agree. I got a bit sloppy there.
I would quote a number of passages that are probably familiar to us all to illustrate that statement, but I fear that might further lead this thread into a discussion of Bombadil when it more properly belongs to the Istari.
I would encourage you to bump the Bombadil thread and post them there, if you don't think they are appropriate here. After all, there can never be too much Bombadil. :)
I really wish you'd expound upon that comment. Are you saying that you believe Gandalf's fëa was sent back naked, i.e., "houseless" or without hröa? Did he then re-house his old body? If that is so, why then did his fëa leave it to begin with? Wasn't it destroyed (or at least no longer functional)? Did Eru "fix" his old body? Or was a new one left there on the mountain top for him? I suppose those questions cannot be answered with absolute certainty (unless someone knows where Tolkien stated it unambiguously), but I'd be interested to hear some theories (supported by Tolkien's writings, of course).
I'll have to give this some more thought, and figure out exactly what I do mean. :blackeye: But I think this statement, from the chapter The White Rider in The Two Towers, just after Gandalf's return is key:
Indeed my friends, none of you has any weapon that could hurt me.
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Post by Jnyusa »

Voronwë wrote:
Indeed my friends, none of you has any weapon that could hurt me.
Although, almost those same words were spoken by a Vala (Mandos iirc) to Fëanor or Fingolfin (one of the F's) when they said they were returning to Middle Earth to defeat Morgoth. They did not appreciate how superior was the power of a Vala.

So I'm not sure that Tolkien intended to imply more by this than the fact that Gandalf's powers as a Maia were no longer limited by his body.

I do suspect that after Moria Gandalf was the equal of Sauron if not his superior, but he also understood that it was not his mission to take on Sauron.

Before the Sil was published and we had only the text of LotR at our disposal ... well, first of all, the power equivalence of Gandalf and the Balrog was clear from the text without even needing reference to the Maiar; though the fact that Sauron was in this same league was not obvious - on the contrary it seemed plain that Sauron was superior in power to both the Balrog and Gandalf the Grey. Otherwise any of the Istari could have challenged Sauron on their own, but even Saruman could not do that. Why Sauron's power had grown so great beyond the other Maiar in spite of the fact that he had invested much more of his power in a body, this is never really explained by Tolkien. That's thought #1.

Thought #2 from those early days was that Tolkien made a point of having antagonists of matching power. The mercy of Frodo is pitted against the treason of Gollum; the wisdom of Gandalf is pitted against the greed of Saruman; the elves are pitted against the orcs, which we thought in those days to be corrupted elves, and so on.

It was my interpretation, originally, that Aragorn needed to face off with the WitchKing, but that such a confrontation could have only one outcome because of the prophecy. (Remember that we did not have the source of the Prophecy. It was, in that context, as potent as the Oath of the Dead and so constrained the narrative.)

It was equally obvious that Aragorn could not die. :)

My impression, reading Gandalf's words after he knew that Éowyn had killed the Wiki, was that Gandalf thought that his task in the battle would be to kill the Wiki on behalf of Aragorn, and only because it was a necessary confrontation between 'equal's' but one that could not take place in prescribed form because some supernatural (prophetic) power was also at work.

So Gandalf's realization that the fuss with Faramir has caused this task to pass to another whose power was much inferior was really a potent, tragic realization.

It has always seemed significant to me that there are several points in the story where Gandalf truly believes himself to have failed. He is called upon to abandon his calculations of what Eru wanted from him in Middle Earth, and take on instead a seemingly lesser task which pops up and which only he can do - as with the Balrog and with the rescue of Faramir. He has to surrender his own understanding of the plan and trust Eru. (This of course is exactly what Saruman is never able to do.)

In fact, I am drawing the conclusion over many readings that this is the very essence of Gandalf's character - the willingness to admit that he does not know the plan but will offer himself to do what is necessary without needing any certainties.

And we see in both cases that the outcome is positive. Gandalf does return from beyond time and space to lead the fellowship as needed, and in saving Faramir he also saves Éowyn. The fact that Tolkien brings these circles to close is evidence of his own faith in the rewards of faith.

I have thought ... well, this is something I've hesitated to post about here for fear of being misunderstood ... but I have long thought that the contrast between Gandalf and Saruman was related to Tolkien's understanding of his Christian faith and what he himself (Tolkien) was being called upon to do.

He wrote revealing all the core values from his very distinct religious faith without confining them, not even by allegory, to a specific set of beliefs, as if to say, "I don't know for whom this might be relevant but it is so important to me that I will write it in such a way that no one need feel excluded from it."

The character of Sarum stands in contrast to that mentality. His universe is not open-ended and receptive to the infusion of new understandings; he wants to be in control of the plan, and if he can't control the plan then he makes his own plan to counter it.

I have long suspected Tolkien of feeling, perhaps, that C. S. Lewis' approach was a bit like the approach of Saruman ... that unless 'the plan' as he understood it could be made plain (through allegory) then he had not succeeded at this purpose. Whereas for Tolkien himself, if 'the plan' had been presented as such, a larger purpose would have been already defeated by that.

(Not sure that's entirely coherent. Writing late at night.)

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Post by superwizard »

Jyn wrote:I do suspect that after Moria Gandalf was the equal of Sauron if not his superior, but he also understood that it was not his mission to take on Sauron.
I do not disagree that Gandalf did not see it as his mission to take on Sauron but I personally never thought that Gandalf was ever equal to or superior to Sauron. For example when Aragorn looks at the plantir Gimli cries:
Even Gandalf feared that encounter
Now I know this doesn't prove anything but I took it to mean that Sauron would have been victorious oveer Gandalf and so Gandalf is weaker.
Before Moria it is quite obvious Gandalf is much weaker than Sauron but I wonder after Moria? What do you think??
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Post by Alatar »

Wasn't there a serious attempt to discuss the possibility of Tom being Manwë at one stage? I seem to remember reading that.

Incidentally, I'm an Istar and nobody's visited me, let alone revisited!
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Very interesting thoughts, Jn. I will have to ponder them for a while before addressing most of them. I'll just respond to one small point.
Jnyusa wrote:
Indeed my friends, none of you has any weapon that could hurt me.
Although, almost those same words were spoken by a Vala (Mandos iirc) to Fëanor or Fingolfin (one of the F's) when they said they were returning to Middle Earth to defeat Morgoth. They did not appreciate how superior was the power of a Vala.
Actually, it was Manwë's messenger, speaking to Fëanor, but the words were a little different:
The lies of Melkor thou shalt unlearn in bitterness. Vala he is, thou saist. Then thou hast sworn in vain, for none of the Valar canst thou overcome now or ever within the halls ofEa, not thoughEru whom thou namest had made thee thrice greater than thou art.
However, despite the truth of these words, Fingolfin does touch Melkor with a weapon, wounding him seven times in their duel before Melkor finally overwhelmed him.

I continue to believe that Gandalf meant those words quite literally - that no weapon could harm him because he no longer was truly corporeal. It is an interesting fact to consider that not only was Gandalf the White ever in danger of being harmed by any weapon, he also never is shown taking up a weapon against anyone else, or otherwise physically assaulting anyone (at least that I can think of). He disappears before the battle of Helms Deep, and saves the day by enlisting the help of Erkenbrand and Treebeard. He overcomes Saruman by breaking his staff, not by any physical action but just by willing it. He faces down the Witchking, but never raises a weapon against him. He never goes down to the fields of the Pelennor despite the battle that is raging their. The closest that he comes to engaging in any kind of physical battle is when he rescues Faramir. But he uses no weapon, not even his staff. It's not even clear that he really did anything physical at all
It seemed to Pippin that he raised his hand, and from it a shaft of white light stabbed upwards.
I believe that once Gandalf's body died and he was returned he was profoundly different. He was no longer an emmissary of the Valar but a direct representative of Eru himself. That much Tolkien does make clear.
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Actually, we had a rather involved discussion in this very thread about whether or not the Blue Wizards had actually failed or not.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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