The Istari Revisited

[Voronwë the Faithful]

At board77 there was a discussion of the Istari which began to explore some very interesting concepts. The discussion was unfortunately truncated when when of the participants decided to delete all of his posts. Here is the thread I am referring to:

The Istari Discussion Thread

Fast forwarding to the present, I just came across a description of Olórin that was in the final text of The Valaquenta as written by JRRT but which was regretably omitted from the published version:

"He was humble in the Land of the Blessed; and in Middle-earth he sought no renown. His triumph was in the uprising of the fallen, and his joy was in the renewal of hope."

That is as good a summation of Gandalf/Olórin as I have ever seen. It made me recall how much I had hoped to revisit the issues that were explored in that previous thread. Anyone else interested in discussing the Istari?

[Athrabeth]

Why, exactly, is Gandalf more powerful the second time they meet? There are reasons, of course, in the story, but what I am interested in are the underlying philosophical reasons that this should be so. If any reading this will permit me to frame the question this way, why in Tolkien's Moral Universe does the truly wise man become more powerful than the false wise man? Why does the old man of the earth become taller and more far seeing than the old man of the tower?

It would be hard to underestimate the value of listening. I'll go out on a limb and say that it is the source of all 'power.'

I haven't had time to unjumble and organize all the thoughts that have been sparked by my rereading of the original Istari thread, but this time around, they are definitely interwoven with some of the ideas that have been developing through the discussions we've been having in the Sil and Physical Universe and Armour of Fate threads.

I've learned a lot about Ulmo lately.

He reminds me, in many ways, of Gandalf.

Like Gandalf, Ulmo is a solitary "wanderer", with no set abiding place, no fine halls or grand tower in which to reside. Instead, he moves beneath the foundations of the earth, in the "Outer Ocean":

He is alone. He dwells nowhere long, but moves as he will in all the deep waters about the Earth or under the Earth.
<snip>
...he kept all Arda in thought, and he has no need of any resting place.

Like Gandalf, Ulmo is a renewer, and sends messages of hope to those who will listen, and like Gandalf, he knows the intimate connection between the great sorrows and joys of the world:

Ulmo blends Ilmen and Vaiya and sends them up through the veins of the world to cleanse and refresh the seas and rivers, the lakes and fountains of Earth. And running water thus possesses the memory of the deeps and the heights, and holds somewhat of the wisdom and music of Ulmo.
<snip>
In the deep places he gives thought to music great and terrible; and the echo of that music runs through all the veins of the world in sorrow and in joy; for if joyful is the fountain that rises in the sun, its springs are in the wells of sorrow unfathomed at the foundations of the Earth.

Perhaps most importantly, like Gandalf, Ulmo listens to all the Children of Ilúvatar. He knows their fears and doubts, their hope and despair, their strengths and weaknesses.....and he loves them, and pities them, and wonders at them:

Ulmo loves both Elves and Men, and never abandoned them, not even when they lay under the wrath of the Valar.
<snip>
And thus it was by the power of Ulmo that even under the darkness of Melkor life coursed still through many secret lodes, and the Earth did not die; and to all who were lost in that darkness or wandered far from the light of the Valar the ear of Ulmo was ever open; nor has he ever forsaken Middle-earth, and whatsoever may since have befallen of ruin or of change he has not ceased to take thought for it, and will not until the end of days.

I think that there is even a striking similarity between Ulmo and Gandalf in their abilities to perceive a "rift" in the Armour of Fate, and to set in motion events that will kindle "a light that will pierce the darkness". The words Ulmo speaks openly to Tuor could well be the words that Gandalf might have spoken in his heart when Frodo takes on the Quest at the Council of Elrond:

"The last hope alone is left, the hope that they have not looked for and have not prepared. And that hope lieth in thee; for so I have chosen."

Ulmo is the original "old man of the earth" I think. He knows the workings of its great heart and listens to and understands the secrets of the innumerable hearts of those that walk upon it. He speaks with love and wisdom and compassion, even to those who will not or cannot hearken to the secret music he sets in all the waters of the earth. Although Manwë cannot be seen as Faramond's "false wise man", he is indeed something akin to "the old man of the tower" isn't he? - rooted to one place, looking out at the world from atop the great pinnacle of Taniquetil. He sees "the big picture" and knows the "great dooms" of the tale.......but the "details", well, those are in Ulmo's sight, and he knows that the mystery and power contained in small and fleeting lives can reshape and redirect even that which the greatest of the Wise consider set and immovable.

Yes, Gandalf very much reminds me of Ulmo.

In the Sil, Tolkien writes that "news comes to Ulmo even in the deeps, of all the needs and griefs of Arda, which otherwise would be hidden from Manwë" and that "Manwë and Ulmo have from the beginning been allied, and in all things have served most faithfully the purposes of Ilúvatar." I've been wondering if, after the world was bent and the fashion of its design changed, the powers of Ulmo that were so connected to that original design would be lessened - all but forgotten by those who once hearkened to his messages. Perhaps the words he spoke to Tuor became even more true as the Third Age wore on:

"...the shadow of the Enemy lengthens; and I am diminished, until in Middle-earth I am become now no more than a secret whisper. The waters that run westward wither, and their springs are poisoned, and my power withdraws from the land; for Elves and Men grow blind and deaf to me..."

Perhaps another bearer of a voice of wisdom and love had to be sent to wander the earth and listen to the hearts of Elves and Men, and renew their hope, and seek out a way to pierce the darkness with light. Perhaps.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Lovely post, Ath. I'm glad to see that someone is interested in talking about the Istari.

I think that there is even a striking similarity between Ulmo and Gandalf in their abilities to perceive a "rift" in the Armour of Fate, and to set in motion events that will kindle "a light that will pierce the darkness". The words Ulmo speaks openly to Tuor could well be the words that Gandalf might have spoken in his heart when Frodo takes on the Quest at the Council of Elrond:

"The last hope alone is left, the hope that they have not looked for and have not prepared. And that hope lieth in thee; for so I have chosen."

Actually, what this makes me think of is Gandalf's words in the Quest of Erebor in UT about choosing Bilbo. Just as Ulmo "chose" Tuor to go on a quest to find Turgon in Gondolin, which led to his "heir" Eärendil achieving an impossible task and thus saving the Eldar and the Edain from Morgoth, Gandalf "chose" Bilbo to go on a quest to the Lonely Mountain, which led to his "heir" Frodo achieving an impossible task and thus saving the Free Peoples of Middle-earth from Sauron.

The difference, of course, is that Ulmo had a much clearer understanding of what it was that he was doing when he "chose" Tuor the Gandalf did when he "chose" Bilbo. Or at least, so it appears. And that of course makes sense, because Tolkien is clear that of all the Ainur, Ulmo had the clearest understanding of the original Music. But (and this is not a thought that had ever occurred to me before), Olórin must also have been present at and participated in the Music, as one of the Ainur. What a different perspective that places on the foresight that Gandalf shows as the Tale plays out in LOTR!

[Faramond]

Lovely post, Ath.



Gandalf choosing Bilbo:

Sometimes people are called and it's not clear why. Why would Gandalf choose Bilbo and not some other hobbit in the Shire? Bilbo can not have been the best choice, could he? He was a soft aristocratic lay-about, with no idea of the true meaning of work. Bilbo was the hobbit version of a playboy, without the womanizing. ( Or with it? )

I just won't believe that Gandalf knew that Bilbo would be at the start of a chain of events leading up to the destruction of the ring. I think Gandalf did this sort of thing all the time. I think Gandalf pushed people into becoming their true selves all the time. He brought out something inside of them. There was a decent chance that one of the persons he chose would go on to play an important part in the destruction of the ring.

But I still don't know why Gandalf chose Bilbo! We could say that Tolkien chose Bilbo, out of his own prejudices. I think though that my answer is that Gandalf was guided, subconciously, if you will, by the music. Gandalf was a great listener, and, by the course he chose in Middle Earth as Gandalf, he let the music become a part of himself.

[vison]

The Wind, the Sea, and the Sky

The Istari Arrive……

There they are on the sea strand, all Five of them. The wind is brisk off the water, and chill -- catching their robes, whipping their hair and long beards. They look about the land and sea and sky, then at each other. This is not like where they come from, as far as they can remember. Are their minds puzzled by a long journey and a strange sleep? Did they come by boat, rocking on the bosom of the sea? There is no boat in the water, not now. But is that a sail, glimmering white very far away on the Western horizon? Gone, gone now. It may be that it has become that star that just for one heartbeat blinks between the mountainous clouds and the water. The surf rears higher and great waves break, spilling white foam at their feet. The skies darken and the wind rises and soon they are being wet by the sea spray and rain.

They move from the windy shore to the nearby woods. The wind booms overhead in the trees, leaves whirl around the tree trunks, but here for the moment they are dry. Radagast moves purposefully, walks up to a towering oak and presses his hands and face to the living wood. Listening. He smiles, and sighs, and caresses the rough bark. He looks up and up its length and sees eyes in the boughs above. He holds up his hand and a tiny brown wren sidles cheekily down the tree and perches on his finger, cocking its pert head and regarding him with interest. His whole being is suffused with delight and wonder. For a moment or so they are still, then Radagast nods and turns to the other Four. "I am going now," he says. "They are calling me."

Alatar watches Radagast until he is vanished in the tree shadows. He frowns, and shivers. He goes back to the water's edge and stares out over the surging waves, and in the white spume of a huge breaker he sees a face, lovely and laughing, laughing at him. He lifts his hand in greeting and she dives under with a flirt of her fishes tail and then there she is, near enough for him to see the ocean colour of her eyes. He walks into the water and reaches her and she puts out her hand, it is clear and pink as the inside of a precious shell. He puts his hand in hers and turns to the shore. "I am going now," he cries. "They are calling me." He walks until the water is so deep he is swept off his feet, then down he goes into the green-grey sea.

Pallando watched Radagast and he watched Alatar. He has left the shelter of the woods and stands on a rock that is upthrust from the shingle. Here the wind is stronger and he opens his arms and closes his eyes, surrendering to the wind’s rough embrace. He hears a cry, high and wild, heart piercing. Tears sting his eyes and are caught away by the wind. He leans into it, trusting its power, and suddenly he is whirled upward like a leaf and there is the great eagle, soaring beside him, great fierce golden eyes burning into his. "I am going now," he shouts to the two below. "They are calling me." Then he is gone up into the wild sky, into the realm of thunder and lightning.

Saruman watched Radagast touch the tree, watched Alatar take the seawoman's hand, watched Pallando rise with the eagle. He turns slowly around, holding his staff out as if divining the Earth, Air, and Water. His white robes flap around his lean body, his hair and beard are wet tendrils whipping his skin. Even the rocks beneath his feet are rumbling with the fury of the storm, sparking one against the other. He pushes against the wind into the lee of a great rock. He kneels and takes up a handful of dry seaweed and leaves and crushes them. Then he takes up two rocks and cracks them together hard over the brown, dried leaves and the tiny spark falls and he breathes on it and he breathes again and a tongue of flame catches a bit of silvery driftwood and Saruman leans back on his heels and smiles. He stares into the red flames that laugh and beckon him and holds his hands over the heat. He takes up a handful of fire and walks away down the beach, the wind at his back. I am going now," he shouts back. "They are calling me.' But the wind takes his words and breaks them into a million shards that fall unheard with the rain.

Gandalf stands alone between the Trees and the Waves and the Wind. He, too, turns, as if divining the elements. He turns and turns as if in some sacred dance, eyes closed, head back, arms spread, his robe belling out. The wind has stilled, the waves fall gently now as the tide retreats and the sand shines wetly in a clear beam of light that pierces the Western skies and strikes the shore in benediction. He stands very still and listens. He hears the sea hushing on the sand, hears the trees swaying, breathes the cool, salt-tanged air. He hears something else. There, in the lee of the great rock are two of them and they are watching the fire. One reaches toward the hungry, licking flames and Gandalf puts his hand between that hand and the blaze. The face turns and Gandalf smiles at the love and trust in the great grey eyes. "At last you are come," it says, "we have been calling and calling you." Gandalf slings his staff across his back and takes each being by the hand and stands for a moment looking West. "Shall we go now?" he says at last.

[Primula Baggins]

Absolutely lovely, vison.

I will be back when I have time for thought.

[superwizard]

Very nice vision
I would just like to comment about something said earlier

Why would Gandalf choose Bilbo and not some other hobbit in the Shire? Bilbo can not have been the best choice, could he? He was a soft aristocratic lay-about, with no idea of the true meaning of work. Bilbo was the hobbit version of a playboy, without the womanizing.

But Gandalf did not know that Bilbo had become like that, if you recall Gandalf had last seen Bilbo when he was still 'not come of age' and a lot happens to a person between the ages of 30 and 50. Gandalf chose Bilbo hoping he was still the same and actually was horrified when he saw how he had become as mentioned in Unfinished Tales. So Gandalf had in fact thought he had picked the best man for the job when he chose Bilbo.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Good point, superwizard (and nice to see you here!). Not only did Gandalf remember Bilbo fondly, he was hearing "queer" things about him, which tended to confirm his belief that he had the right person:

'Somehow I had been attracted by Bilbo long before, as a child, and a young hobbit: he had not quite come of age when I had last seen him. He had stayed in my mind ever since, with his eagerness and his bright eyes, and his love of tales, and his questions about the wide world outside the Shire. As soon as I entered the Shire I heard news of him. He was getting talked about, it seemed. Both his parents had died early for Shire-folk, at about eighty; and he had never married. He was already growing a bit queer, they said, and went off for days by himself. He could be seen talking to strangers, even Dwarves.

<snip> I went off at once to have a look at Bilbo, to see what twenty years had done to him, and whether he was as promising as gossip seemed to make out. But he was not at home. They shook their heads in Hobbiton when asked after him. "Off again," said one hobbit. It was Holman, the gardener, I believe. "Off again. He'll go right off one of these days, if he isn't careful. Why, I asked him where he was going, and when he would be back, and I don't know he says; and then he looks at me queerly. It depends if I meet any, Holman, he says. It's the Elves' New Year tomorrow! A pity, and him so kind a body. You wouldn't find a better from the Downs to the River."

Of course, when Gandalf did finally find Bilbo he found him to have changed, getting rather greedy and fat, "with his old desires dwindling down to a sort of private dream." But they were still there, waiting to be renewed.

In another version of the Quest of Erebor, Gandalf makes it clear that Bilbo had just the mix that he was looking for"

... thinking over the Hobbits that I knew, I said to myself: "I want a dash of the Took" (but not too much, Master Peregrin) "and I want a good foundation of the stolider sort, a Baggins perhaps." That pointed at once to Bilbo. And I had known him once very well, almost up to his coming of age, butter then he knew me. I liked him then. And now I found that he was "unattached" -- to jump on again, for of course I did not know all this until I went back to the Shire. I learned that he had never married. I thought that odd, though I guessed why it was; and the reason that I guessed was not the one that most of the Hobbits gave me: that he had early been left very well off and his own master. No I guessed that he wanted to remain "unattached" for some reason deep down which he did not understand himself -- or would not acknowledge, for it alarmed him. He wanted, all the same, to be free to go when the chance came, or he had made up his courage. ...

Even more telling is Gandalf answer to Gimli's question about the connection between the fall of Smaug and that of Sauron:

Then looking hard at Gandalf he went on: 'But who wove the web? I do not think I have ever considered that before. Did you plan all this then, Gandalf? If not, why did you lead Thorin Oakenshield to such an unlikely door? To find the Ring and bring it far away into the West for hiding, and then to choose the Ringbearer -- and to restore the Mountain Kingdom as a mere deed by the way: was not that your design?

Gandalf did not answer at once. He stood up, and looked out of the window, west, seawards, and the sun was then setting, and a glow was in his face. He stood so a long while silent. But at last he turned to Gimli and said: 'I do not know the answer. For I have changed since those days, and I am no longer trammelled by the burden of Middle-earth as I was then. In those days I should have answered you with words like those I used to Frodo, only last year in the spring. Only last year! But such measures are meaningless. In that far distant time I said to a small and frightened hobbit: Bilbo was meant to find the Ring and not by its maker, and you therefore were meant to bear it. And I might have added: and I was meant to guide you both to those points.

'To do that I used in my waking mind only such means as were allowed to me, doing what lay to my hand according to such reasons as I had. But what I knew in my heart, or knew before I stepped on these grey shores: that is another matter. Olórin I was in the West that is forgotten, and only to those who are there shall I speak more openly

In the end, it can only be concluded that Gandalf was an instrument of Eru, just as Ulmo himself was. But I think it is clear that as Gandalf the Grey, his own understanding of his own role was very fuzzy and unclear. Those last words that I bolded are very telling, I think. They suggest that he did have a clearer memory of the Music before taking on the burden of Middle-earth, and probably again did so after his return as Gandalf the White.

Faramond says:

Gandalf was a great listener, and, by the course he chose in Middle Earth as Gandalf, he let the music become a part of himself.

That is well and true, but I must repeat, he himself was a part of the Music. His knowledge and overstanding (to use the Rastafarian term for understanding) of what was to be goes back to before the beginning of Time. He suggests as much, in these provocative words to Gimli:

"Well, I am glad to have heard the full tale. If it is full. I do not really suppose that even now you are telling us all you know.'

'Of course not,' said Gandalf.

[superwizard]

Seeing as we're in the topic of Gandalf, there's something I always ponder about. What exactly happened to Gandalf when he died? How did he come back stronger? Did he go back to Valinor as a spirit and they then transfered him back to Middle Earth and gave him more power? Or did what?? I think about quite often...

[Voronwë the Faithful]

superwizard, here are some comments of Tolkien's, from Letter 156:

Gandalf really 'died', and was changed: for that seems to me the only real cheating, to represent anything that can be called 'death' as making no difference. <snip>

<snip>For in his condition it was for him a sacrifice to perish on the Bridge in defense of his companions, less perhaps than for a mortal Man or Hobbit, since he had a far greater inner power than they; but also more, since it was a humbling and abnegation of himself in conformity to 'the Rules': for all he could know at that moment he was the only person who could direct the resistance to Sauron successfully, and all his mission was vain. He was handing over to the Authority that ordained the Rules, and giving up personal hope of success.

That I should say was what the Authority wished, as a set-off to Saruman. The 'wizards', as such, had failed; or if you like: the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned. <snip>

<snip>He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back -- for a brief time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'.

[superwizard]

Thank you very much Voronwë_the_Faithful. I unfortunately do not have a copy of The Letters or actually any of the complementary books (all of that will soon change by next year when I go to Stanford)
But after reading your post I have to ask your opinion; where did Gandalf go; back to Eru?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Ho boy! That's a question that could probably be a thread of its own. I'm tempted to say that his spirit went to Mandos, but I don't think that's right. I would say he returned to Valinor, but then was sent back to Middle-earth by Eru, but I don't think that is right, either. The truth is, I don't know.

[superwizard]

Thanks for the insight, I believe that this matter is much more complex than what first meets the eye but unfortunately I don't have the resources to properly delve into the matter.

[Primula Baggins]

Well, you picked a good place to ask, superwizard!

Welcome to the board, by the way.

[superwizard]

Thanks for the welcome and I'm personally thrilled to have found out about this forum!

[axordil]

It occurs to me that when Gandalf says he was sent back "naked," he refers to more than just showing up in his birthday suit on Zirak-zigil. I think he may be alluding to the fact that his power as one of the Ainur (lesser order) is now less cloaked within the frailties of flesh. Note that he says later, to Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli, than none of them have a weapon capable of harming him now...and Aragorn is wielding the reforged Narsil, which wounded Sauron at the height of his physical power.

Such a condition could only be countenanced by the Valar for a short period of time, obviously: till his mission was complete. From his rebirth to the fall of Sauron, Gandalf the White only actively spends himself for 39 days.

[scirocco]

It occurs to me that when Gandalf says he was sent back "naked," he refers to more than just showing up in his birthday suit on Zirak-zigil. I think he may be alluding to the fact that his power as one of the Ainur (lesser order) is now less cloaked within the frailties of flesh.

An interesting and convincing idea, Axordil, although just for the record Tolkien says that all he means is literally naked and ready for clothing and shelter in Lórien:

Naked is alas! unclear. It was meant just literally, 'unclothed like a child' (not discarnate), and so ready to receive the white robes of the highest. Galadriel's power is not divine, and his healing in Lórien is meant to be no more than physical healing and refreshment...

Letter 156

Reading further in that letter, I was quite surprised to see how the Valar deliberately limted the power of the Istari by clothing them in human form:

Why they should take such a form is bound up with the 'mythology' of the 'angelic' Powers of the world of this fable. At this point in the fabulous history the purpose was precisely to limit and hinder their exhibition of 'power' on the physical plane, and so that they should do what they were primarily sent for...

Letter 156

I had always understood that the Istari were limited and restricted by their mortal bodies, but had thought it was kind of an unfortunate side-effect. I hadn't previously realised how deliberately the imposition of those bodies was done. Quite, I don't know, Machiavellian of the Valar I would almost say...

[Primula Baggins]

It was a good plan, if the idea was to inspire Elves and Men to choose the right path, rather than to drive them along it. There was more value in their free choice than if their obedience had been inescapable and perfect.

[scirocco]

So, doubly ironic, then, that the Istari were not trusted to follow the right path themselves, but were "hindered" from using forces which the Valar considered inappropriate?

[superwizard]

You see The Valar had learned from their mistake (as mentioned in Unfinished Tales) and decided that this time they would not set uot to destroy Sauron by force but by motivating the free people of Middle Earth. I mean last time they destroyed so much of Middle Earth and the were afraid for the safety of Men who were weaker than the Elves