Catching Up to the Sil Discussion: Chapter 9

[Cerin]

So in your view, V, what were they discussing? Whether or not to do the will of Ilúvatar? (a rather shocking idea, it seems to me)

[Voronwë the Faithful]

What were they discussing? It makes it completely clear that they were discussing whether or not to bring the Eldar to Valinor or not, and that some, led by Ulmo, were against the idea. Ulmo role is often to oppose the will of his brethren, as we will see subsequently. It is Ulmo who is ever looking to take advantage of those rifts in the armour of Fate that I mentioned previously. But that does not change the fact that Tolkien's own words make it clear that the decision of the Valar reflected the will of Ilúvatar.

[Cerin]

Yes, I understand they were discussing whether to summon the Elves.

I guess I got the impression that you were saying they already knew what the will of Ilúvatar was; so in that case the only thing to debate would be whether or not to do his will.

But perhaps you mean that they are debating what seems best to them to do, trusting that what the majority decides will be in accordance with the will of Ilúvatar?

[axordil]

I think we need to remember that, once in the world, the Valar no longer had direct and immediate access to Eru as they had before Arda. That includes knowledge of his will, which they each kept in a general way, but which they each had a particular view of, being as they were individuated aspects of Eru's mind. Mandos may be an exception, but he's always the odd man out, isn't he?

Thus the debates and councils and arguments. They are all TRYING to execute the score they heard, but each only has their part to look at. Mandos has the conductor's score, but isn't conducting, because to do so would be to usurp.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Mandos is like the guy over in the corner interpreting the score in sign language for the deaf.

[Hachimitsu]

I am totally confused, sorry. I don't understand the point of the elves waking up in Middle Earth if they were supposed to be corralled to Valinor anyway. Why leave the first born to wake up on their own when they were supposed to live in Valinor with the Valar in the first place Also if it wasn't selfish, why have the line about desiring friendship with the elves. how were the first born and the Aftercomers ever supposed to interact if one group is in Valinor and one group is in Middle Earth? Were they even supposed to interact in the first place?

I still don't understand why the Valar basically cut themselves off from the rest of the Earth when they are the ones who built it. (I kind of understand in later parts of the story but not in this early part).

[Cerin]

That's just the way I feel about it at this point, too, Wilma. The summons seems like such folly in view of the commission the Valar started out with; but with the new information Voronwë has provided, there seems no doubt that the summons is not to be considered an error.

At least for me, knowing it wasn't a mistake will make the subsequent heartache easier to bear.


Thanks, Ax, that was very helpful!

[axordil]

I do occasionally view Mandos as the guy in the theater yelling "no you fools!" during the horror movie too, but I suspect that isn't nearly as useful an image.

[Jnyusa]

I feel ready to enter this conversation now. Over the weekend I was able to read through Ch. 11. After absorbing the Sil via osmosis by listening in on so many discussions, I was able to get through it this time without so much confusion and tedium.

Jn

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Yeah!

Just a few more chapters and you will be caught up to the original discussion (which is on Chapter 17). Feel free to comment on anything up to Chapter 3 here, and anything after Chapter 3 in the other thread (we don't mind stepping backwards where needed; that discussion very much has an "entmoot" feel about it; Ath has to constantly remind me not to get too "hasty").

Yeah!

[Cerin]

Jn, did you read 11 Chapters at once and were able to keep things straight?!



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Chapter 4 - Of Thingol and Melian

Melian was a Maia, of the race of the Valar. She was the most beautiful of Lórien's people and the most gifted in songs of enchantment. She would sing at the mingling of the lights. She departed from Valinor when the Elves awoke, and filled the silence of Middle-earth with her voice and the voices of her birds.

At that time the Teleri rested in East Beleriand, and the Noldor to the west. Elwë of the Teleri would often go to meet Finwë in the dwellings of the Noldor; one such night in the forest of Nan Elmoth, Elwë heard the nightingales and the voice of Melian and came under a spell. He remained there with her, never to return to Valinor.

Elwë became a king renowned, and his people were all the Eldar of Beleriand, the Sindar, the Grey-elves, Elves of the Twilight. He was called King Greymantle, Elu Thingol and Melian was his Queen. They dwelt in the hidden halls of Menegroth, the Thousand Caves, in Doriath.

Thingol was great among the Eldar, alone of the Sindar having seen the Trees, and Melian also lent him great power. He was not counted among the Moriquendi, but with the Elves of the Light. From the union of Thingol and Melian came the fairest of the Children of Ilúvatar.

Melian - a Maia, of the race of the Valar, skilled in songs of enchantment; she left the gardens of Lórien for Middle-earth when the Elves awoke.

Elu Thingol - King Greymantle; so was Elwë Singollo called after he forgot his former people and dwelt with Melian


I had not previously retained the fact that a Maia joined with an Elf! That seems somewhat strange to me, as the Maiar are an order of spiritual being different from the Children of Ilúvatar. Though perhaps it is not so much different from an Elf and a human falling in love?

[axordil]

The relationship:

Maia:Eldar::Eldar:Edain

is actually a pretty good fit. The elves share with the Maia a direct tie to the Music, and a mind that can perceive more freely into the past and future, while sharing with Men physicality as a fate, not a career choice.

[Cerin]

Ax, what is the Elves' direct tie to the Music?

[axordil]

The Quendi are bound by fate and to Arda in ways that men are not. They know the score, so to speak, so far as their own place in the order of things goes.

[Alatar]

Ax, what is the Elves' direct tie to the Music?

They know the score, so to speak

[Jnyusa]

<groans>

I didn't get Ax's little pun until you laughed at it, Alatar.

<groans again, really loud>

JN

[axordil]

*takes a bow*

If I can bring a little groan into people's lives every day, I am complete.

[Primula Baggins]

He who would make a pun would pick a pocket.

[Hachimitsu]

OK, I like this part I want to know who was it who was it (or they) that thought Melian should go to Middle Earth? Especially when the elves were all suposed to go to Valinor. I find the spell holding Elwë very interesting, as if to stop him from travelling to Valinor when he was so set on it before.

[Rowanberry]

As far as I've understood, Melian's decision to go to Middle-earth was her own (or at least not determined by anything else but the Music).