Catching Up to the Sil Discussion: Chapter 9

[superwizard]

Certainly an omniscient creator will know how everything is going to turn out. However, that isn't to say he decides how things are going to turn out. Rather, the creatures making the choices over time determine the course of events. It is only from the creator's point of view that things can be said to be pre-destined, because the creator sees how things will be. From the point of view of the creation in time, all choices exist.

Does anyone disagree with this?? I don't but I want to ask does it apply to the Ainur as well?

[axordil]

I disagree with it, SW. If I build a railroad track from point A to point B, and then build a train to go on that track, I not only know where it's going, but have shaped the choice it can make. From the train's point of view, it may not look like that.

[Cerin]

So Ax, are you as much as saying that you believe we never have any choice but to do what we do?

Or are you saying that's what you would believe if you believed in an omniscient creator?

I wonder if it would be better to start a new thread in Lasto to continue with these non-Sil specific questions?

superwizard, I think it must be the case for the Ainur as well. Their job is to achieve the world they saw in the vision, but there will surely be constant choices to be made as part of that process, especially as Melkor keeps interfering in everything they attempt.

The idea of them as puppets is just not something that makes sense to me.

[Primula Baggins]

Our choices shape everything, Cerin. But once they're made, the shape is there for even us to see.

A being outside time can see us before the choice, see us making the choice, and see the consequences, all simultaneously. Such a being just has a better view than we do, moving through one instant at a time as we must. But the choice was still our choice, whatever the view of it is.

Suppose I prune a tree to a particular shape. I can look at it afterwards and see what shape it is. But that doesn't mean I could not have chosen differently, that because the shape exists it was foreordained to exist.

[axordil]

SW--

My question would be rather, what existence do the Ainur have beyond the will of Eru? They are creatures of his thought, after all...albiet imperfect ones.

[superwizard]

Ax if their was no free will than the ideas of good and evil would be obsolete right? How could you blame someone for something he had no say in?

[Cerin]

I agree completely, Prim. I'm just trying to understand whether Ax is saying something different.

[Primula Baggins]

Maybe he is, if we think of the universe as taking exactly the shape its creator wanted and the course of every atom of it and the spin of every subatomic particle being willed.

But wouldn't the creator of such a thing find it boring?

Maybe this should be a thread in Lasto.

[axordil]

What I'm saying is that a creator and a createe must needs have two very different views of creation. Both are correct, given the perspective of the viewer in question.

For us, choices matter, evil and good ones both, and the future is uncertain. And that's all that matters. We don't get to have God's point of view.

[Alatar]

And here we go again...

[Hachimitsu]

Well I am confused. I got a copy from the library but I have been reading quietly to myself. I just like to stick with the Valar could have decided something else when it comes to the summons. (They aren't puppets)

I think on the surface the Valar all appeared to agree with the summons (or to carry it out). I think there were many that disagreed and hence the whole Oromë leaving the elves to go to Valinor for a while. I think in part they really thought they were helping the elves but I also think it was in part for selfish reasons. Not to mention Ulmo being slow to assist at times with this summons. One of the Maia of the sea was pretty greived to see the elves leave the shore (I think). I think that exhibits that the maia and Valar are capable of being selfish. However minute I think they are capable of it. (Also I am pretty sure there is later chapter where something happens and I don't think it was an accident.)

The whole Valar summoning the elves bothers me but I have to live with it. I truly think they made a mistake and realized it later on.

[Primula Baggins]

Cerin, you're the threadstarter: should this discussion be split off?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Ulmo spoke to Tuor of Valinor and its darkening, and the Exile of the Noldor, and the Doom of Mandos, and the hiding of the blessed Realm. 'But behold!' said he, 'in the armour of Fate (as the Children of Earth name it) there is ever a rift, and in the walls of Doom a breach, until the full-making, which ye call the End.

Whoops, I was going to remain quiet, wasn't I?

[Primula Baggins]

No, you weren't.

[Cerin]

No, please do not stay quiet, Voronwë.


Wilma, I'm so glad you were able to get a copy of the book.


I would prefer that if people have more to say about the concept of predestination in general, that a thread be started in Lasto or Tol Eressëa, so that this thread can stay focused on the Sil (if that's alright with everyone).

[superwizard]

I agree wiith Cerin

[axordil]

I don't mind transplantation. But the Sil is, more than anything else, the story of fate and the will of God working themselves out in often mysterious ways. Discussing what happens in it without getting caught up in the larger issue is always going to be tough, unless we content ourselves with close reading and prose analysis.

The important think, though, is not what WE think of Fate/Predestination/Free Will, but what JRRT did, or what his writings show, which may not always be the same thing.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I'm about to set a major monkey wrench into the discussion of the passage that we have been talking about, based upon my investigations of the creation of the published Silmarillion and the changes made by Christopher Tolkien and his partner Guy Kay.

First a minor point. I had previously indicated that I thought it was significant that Tolkien emphasized that Mandos had remained silent in the debate before he stated "So it is doomed." Well, it turns out that he actually emphasized this point a bit more then I thought. The words "who had spoken not at all in the debate" appeared between "Mandos" and "broke his silence" so that it read "And Mandos who had spoken not at all in the debate broke silence and said: 'So it is doomed.'" I guess CT and/or GK thought this was redundant, but I wish they had left well enough alone, because I think the emphasis is important (as I already said before I even knew about this deletion).

But that is nothing compared to what they deleted at the end of the paragraph. At the end of the last sentence after "For of this summons came many woes that after befell" appeared the following extraordinary words, which apparently were deleted by CT and GK:

yet those who hold that the Valar erred, thinking rather of the bliss of Valinor than of the Earth, and seeking to wrest the will of Ilúvatar to their own pleasure, speak with the tongues [read tongue] of Melkor.

CT's only comment about this in his commentary is that the belief that the Valar erred (but "with good intent") as is stated in the earlier version of the QS "is harshly repudiated". That CT would then remove that 'harsh repudiation' of that view I find utterly extraordinary, and most unfortunate. I think it leaves open the possibility of an interpretation of the Valar's actions that Tolkien clearly did not want to leave open. The Valar clearly did not err in making this decision. Had this important statement been left in place as it should have been, it would have been utterly clear to everyone that the Valar were doing the will of Ilúvatar in taking this action.

Just as I have held all along.

[Cerin]

But V, you also said there was no doubt that the Valar erred. I stated that if they were doing the will of Ilúvatar, it could not be said that they erred.

So if we're sure it wasn't an error, that at least clears up one confusion.

thinking rather of the bliss of Valinor than of the Earth

It seems clear that they were thinking rather of the bliss of Valinor than of the earth. That's what makes no sense to me, that's what seems self-centered to me. So if they weren't thinking rather of the bliss of Valinor than of the Earth, what were they doing?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

The will of Ilúvatar.

It seems clear that they were thinking rather of the bliss of Valinor than of the earth.

That's exactly the interpretation that CT left open that Tolkien clearly did not want to leave open. It's a reasonable interpretation to make, with the words I quoted left out.