Strider vs Samwise... FIGHT!

[vison]

Because, while Merry and Pippin loved Frodo, their love for him was not like Sam's. Even Sam's love for Rosie was not like his love for Frodo.

Very likely. But Sam's love for Frodo grew in the telling, as you might say. The Sam who set out with Frodo was not the Sam who came home. Not just changed by his experiences, but changed by the writer.

As I said earlier, we all know that flame wars erupted all over the interweebs on the subject of Sam and Frodo and "how much" Sam loved Frodo. Did he love Frodo more? Would he have "chosen" Frodo over Rosie if the choice had had to be made? Was he, in fact, "in love" with Frodo and was Rosie just consolation?

I belonged to the earthly camp, not the heavenly camp. I still do. It isn't so much whether Sam chose to leave Middle Earth via ship or by dying in the ordinary way, it's the exaltation of his relationship with Frodo over his long marriage - which included fathering 13 children. That's what troubles me. What was Rosie, then? Second best?

Men who have been through war together often form close bonds and think of their comrades as brothers or closer than brothers. But in ordinary life (and Sam was pretty ordinary) the realities of carrying on after the battles must be seen as "more important" or we seem to be saying that the only worthwhile, or the MOST worthwhile and precious relationships a man can have are those warrior friendships.

Tolkien endured war of a kind that men had really never experienced before. It marked him, as it would mark anyone. But he himself went on to live an ordinary life as a husband and father, and from what I've read his love for his wife was very romantic and passionate. He wasn't Sam, of course. But he wasn't Frodo, either.

[Holbytla]

Maybe I am wrong, but it seems to me that all of the hobbits dies in the end anyway, and that they went over the sea to be healed from their toils before they went to their long rest. So in a sense Sam didn't leave Rosie, and he didn't really choose one over the other. Rosie died and Sam chose to delay his death for a bit. He couldn't get Rosie back, but he could get Frodo back for a bit.

[vison]

Maybe I am wrong, but it seems to me that all of the hobbits dies in the end anyway, and that they went over the sea to be healed from their toils before they went to their long rest. So in a sense Sam didn't leave Rosie, and he didn't really choose one over the other. Rosie died and Sam chose to delay his death for a bit. He couldn't get Rosie back, but he could get Frodo back for a bit.

Yes, I see that. But, as I say, it's not the actual "leaving by ship" that bothers me, it's the rest of it.

[axordil]

I've always assumed--and somewhere I think there's a JRRT quote to back this up--that Frodo didn't go the West to live forever, but to be cured of the Ring-longing before he died in the only place that was possible. Same with Bilbo, same with Sam. At some point I expect they passed to wherever in Mandos hobbits go.

In terms of the current subtopic, what that means is that I don't believe there was a reunion of Frodo and Sam, because there's no evidence for it and there is some (that elusive JRRT quote I can't pin down) against it. I expect the Valar could run Frodo through detox before Sam showed up, and I don't think Frodo would care all that much for being the only hobbit in the Undying Lands.

[Holbytla]

Yeah I doubt there was any "definitive" writings regrding this. Yet it seems to me I read somewhere that the hobbits and Gimli (that is a whole other discussion of why he was allowed to go West) went to Tol Erresea, but not to Valinor and there were redressed of the ills they encountered before they died. I don't remember (if there indeed were any) time frame with regards to who died when or whether they were ever reuinted.

And the fact that 5 members of the Fellowship made it "West" to whatever degree of West, I find to be curious and somewhat indicative of sacrifice.

Boromir, Aragorn, Merry and Pippin apparently had no choice in the matter and to me that speaks ever more highly of Aragorn's (and Arwen's) sacrifice.
Where was the redress for hom and the other members of the Fellowship and why were they afforded different fates?

Aragorn's story arc, to me, is the completion of a large circle that was extended far far back in time and was only made complete and whole because of his sacrifices and his rejection of temptation.

[vison]

Oh, excellent post, Holbytla!

[Pearly Di]

I've always assumed--and somewhere I think there's a JRRT quote to back this up--that Frodo didn't go the West to live forever, but to be cured of the Ring-longing before he died in the only place that was possible. Same with Bilbo, same with Sam. At some point I expect they passed to wherever in Mandos hobbits go.

I agree ... and there is a quote, or several, from one of Tolkien's Letters that indeed backs your claim up, Ax. I'm at work so can't access which letter or source.

Elsewhere Tolkien refers to Frodo's time in Eressëa as a period of healing but also of penance and purification ... again, I can't access the exact quote.

I expect the Valar could run Frodo through detox before Sam showed up, and I don't think Frodo would care all that much for being the only hobbit in the Undying Lands.

That's what I've always thought. That could be a bit lonely.

(I am of course projecting mightily into the canon here. )

And the fact that 5 members of the Fellowship made it "West" to whatever degree of West, I find to be curious and somewhat indicative of sacrifice.

Yes ... and Arwen gives up her place on the ship to Frodo ... passes her ticket to him, so to speak.

Boromir, Aragorn, Merry and Pippin apparently had no choice in the matter and to me that speaks ever more highly of Aragorn's (and Arwen's) sacrifice.
Where was the redress for hom and the other members of the Fellowship and why were they afforded different fates?

It's odd. There is a sort of inconsistency and ambiguity there. But I can live with it.

Aragorn's story arc, to me, is the completion of a large circle that was extended far far back in time and was only made complete and whole because of his sacrifices and his rejection of temptation.

Yes.

And Frodo, so I interpret the matter, was granted the grace of going West because of the spiritual price he had paid in carrying Sauron's Ring, i.e. a demonic talisman that literally eats your soul, and the part he played in Sauron's downfall.

The same grace seems extended to Sam, as he, too, was a Ring-bearer.