Why the Eagles Didn't Deliver Frodo to Mt Doom

[MithLuin]

DP.

[MithLuin]

TP.

[Primula Baggins]

The board has been buggy for a few days now, with much weirdness. I've noticed that sometimes a post seems to hang, and then when I check the board and then the forum, there's no indication that my post went through. But then when I open the thread, my post is there.

You can delete your own post in any thread as long as it's the last post. Or if not, you can ask any shirriff and we'll tidy up.

[Frelga]

So, I will give you a different 'personality' for the eagles, but I'd have a hard time seeing why an arrow wouldn't damage them, if it did manage to hit one. After all, Smaug was slain by a single arrow, as was the Nazgûl's fell beast that Legolas shot. The reason eagles are usually immune to arrows is that they fly too high to be shot at. It's an issue of bow strength, not magical invulnerability.

I agree. I certainly wouldn't place them at Balrog level. Balrogs were mythical creatures of fire and shadow. Eagles are just very big birds, no matter what spirits animate them, just as Gandalf physically was an old man while in ME.

As far as them surviving all those ancient battles - one might as well make the case that hobbits are as vulnerable as Balrogs, seeing that the four of them survived one, as well as being captured by orcs, bitten by spiders, stabbed by magical blades, stomped by trolls, etc. Just because the characters didn't get killed doesn't mean that it's impossible to kill them.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Eagles are just very big birds, no matter what spirits animate them, just as Gandalf physically was an old man while in ME.

An old man who wasn't killed until after plunging hundreds of feet while the Balrog's fire was about him, then plunged further down to the bottom of the measureless water beneath the Durin's Bridge, beyond light and knowledge, and then, continuing up the Endless Star to Durin's Tower at the pinnicle of the Silvertine, and then battled the Balrog so that those looking at the mountain from afar would have thought it was crowned with storm, and heard thunder, and saw lightning, and he vanquished the spirit of flame and shadow? Yes, that is a very good analogy for the point that I am making.

[axordil]

I've often wondered myself if, painful and draining as it was, Frodo's gradual approach to the Sammath Naur wasn't the only way a mortal could have survived it. If all of the things he felt from Ithilien onward hit him in a thirty-minute express flight from the Morannon to Oroduin, maybe he would have simply succumbed that much faster.

[Primula Baggins]

Reversible processes. The least energetically expensive way to make any kind of transition from one state to another is to do it by the tiniest possible increments. The system is allllmost at equilibrium all the way through.

Sorry. I get these P-chem flashbacks sometimes.

[axordil]

I was thinking more of the frog in the pot of water, but same idea.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

That's an interesting thought, Ax!

And Frelga, I don't mean to dismiss your point about the Eagles being vulnerable; they certainly are vulnerable. I think when it comes down to it, this is a task that was "meant" to be accomplished by the small and less powerful, not the mighty. The same rational that Gandalf gave to Elrond about not sending an Elf-lord such as Glorfindel could largely be applied to not sending an Eagle.

[Primula Baggins]

I have to confess that I'm bothered by this idea in much the same way I would be bothered by Eagles ex machina. I can't quite put my finger on it, except that I think insisting not only that right action must be taken, but that it must be taken in a certain particular way, is extremely picky behavior on Eru's part. If, as I would assume, it is Eru who "meant" the Quest to happen the way it did.

I can't envision a God who would make the Quest far more difficult and dangerous, risking an entire world, in order to—what? Satisfy Frodo's destiny? Teach Elves and Men a lesson?

Of course, if we go back to the notion I always end up going back to , that Eru is eternally present (outside Time) as well as an actor within Time and Middle-earth, then within Time, in the events of the story, Eru "already" knows that the Quest was fulfilled, and who fulfilled it—the universe is and always has been of a shape that includes Frodo, Sam, and Gollum destroying the Ring. In which case the Eagles don't get involved because the Eagles were not involved.

What am I missing here?

[axordil]

I can't envision a God who would make the Quest far more difficult and dangerous, risking an entire world, in order to—what? Satisfy Frodo's destiny? Teach Elves and Men a lesson?

Well, things would be a lot less difficult and dangerous without free will too. Seriously, though, for Tolkien it really DID have to be done a certain way, I think. Theologically speaking, it had to be Frodo failing at the Brink of Doom to satisfy his vision of theodicy.

[Primula Baggins]

You're right—that is exactly the piece I left sitting next to the puzzle. Eru values free will above guaranteed results, because that's the way Middle-earth was created to be. Even though it lets in all that pesky evil, and the fact that bad things can happen by random chance even to very nice people.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I was wondering how long it would take before the discussion turned to the question of fate vs. free will. We always seem to go there, don't we. Well, I happen to think it is the central question on all of Tolkien's work, so I have no complaints!

Certainly, the destruction of the Ring by Frodo was "in" the Music, but equally Mankind (which included Hobbits) was not bound by the Music in the same way that the Eldar was. Or, I would venture to state, spirits such as the Eagles of Manwë. Come to think of it, that really does explain it quite well! Thanks Prim!

[Primula Baggins]

<is gratified that she has apparently said something wise>

<wonders what it was>

[Jnyusa]

I think the question of the Eagles is a very deep question, actually.

It was interesting for me that someone (Voronwë, I think) mentioned that Tolkien was surprised that this question about the eagles was raised de facto ... sort of like the Balrog's wings, perhaps, whose description created an unanticipated conundrum, it did not occur to him while writing the eagles into the story that they would create a plot conundrum afterwards.

That is interesting to me because it confirms in my mind that Tolkien was not thinking about the story in terms of the plot elements that would normally be the concern of someone writing an adventure story.

As usual, I am wanting to ask these questions in the opposite direction: rather than ask why the eagles did not do something which they might have done but did not do, ask why they did the things that they did do.

What did they did?

They rescue Gandalf from Orthanc after his imprisonment. They rescue him again from the ledge of Caradhras after his ordeal. And they rescue Frodo and Sam from the ledges of Sammath Naur.

What would have happened in those circumstances if the eagles had not arrived? Gandalf and Frodo and Sam would be dead.

These are not the only amazing rescues in the story. The White Rider rescues Faramir from the wraiths. Aragorn calls Éowyn back from near death. Pippin is rescued by Legolas from under a pile of orc corpses.

With the exception of Gandalf on Orthanc, these rescues are not plot elements in the sense of being necessary for the primary outcome of the story to be achieved. Gandalf has already been removed from the Fellowship when rescued from Caradhras. His role thereafter is bringer of hope, not bringer of deeds. Faramir and Éowyn are out of the battle when they are 'brought back to life' to find one another and they do not rejoin the battle again or contribute any more to the Quest. The ring has been destroyed by the time Frodo and Sam come crawling down Mt. Doom, and Frodo not only has little to do thereafter but even finds that where he would like to achieve more, he is not able. One can easily imagine the plot encompassing the deaths of these people as easily as their miraculous survival, though that would be a dismal ending - Gandalf gone with the balrog, Faramir burned on the pyre, Éowyn dead on the battlefield and Frodo and Sam washed away by lava.

In real life, you know, in real battle, those people would have been killed. They would not have been saved. And Tolkien knew real battle. So I find these rescues ... curious. And also deep. They are his assertion of a point of view, I think - a faery story point of view, but also, I suspect, a necessary machina given his religious views. What the appearance of the eagles says is that the good will not go unrewarded. They will be rescued in time to receive their reward. So the eagles comes, not to ensure that the deed will be done (plot element) but after the deed has been accomplished, to carry the heroes to their reward. (Or the White Rider comes, or Aragorn comes ... someone comes and the hero is rewarded.)

I think this definitely says something about the way Tolkien envisioned Eru, but not having to do with the question of free will so much. What sort of god would it be who would allow Frodo and Sam to be swallowed by a volcano after what they had achieved on behalf of everyone else? That sort of god would be very 'modern' but not very Catholic. The eagles are the promise of a resurrection, and they are more than that; they are the promise of a resurrection you will live to see. Tolkien brings them in when they are 'needed,' thinking not of their implication for antecedent events but because they represent a necessary reward in which he himself believes.

Now, the thing that I find curious, and deep, about the eagles is that I believe their appearances are the only times when Tolkien deliberately does not tell the truth as he knew it to be, as he had experienced it. The wonderful thing about LotR, you know, is that beneath all that is fantastic in it lies this rock solid truthfulness about the way the world really is. Truthfulness about what is important, truthfulness about what is virtue, truthfulness about the gift of Ilúvatar to the Children of Men, truthfulness about where people find the courage to say 'yes' ... and then we get to the eagles and ... they are not true. Eagles are not the true ending for those who expended their lives saving the world, they are not the true ending for those who died in battle, they are not what Tolkien himself saw in WWII or what he experienced afterwards in daily life. But if you believe in a god that is good, and I believe that Tolkien himself did believe in such a god, then you have to believe in eagles at the end, and you have to put them there in your story so that there can be a moment of reward, when all debts to the heroic and the virtuous are paid and things are made right. This is the necessary outcome of a Christian faery tale.

I think that Tolkien believed in such an ultimate outcome, and therefore in order for the story to be True in its larger, mythic sense, it would have to have eagles in it, and their existence just has to be taken on faith. He made them up, in other words, but only because he believed in them himself.

All the rest of it, however, really happened.

[Primula Baggins]

This is the necessary outcome of a Christian faery tale.

Emphasis mine, and I suspect it's the emphasis you meant. The "pulling of punches," the people who live who should not, is not because this is a Christian tale, but because it's a faery tale.

I don't think Tolkien so much believed in this kind of an ultimate outcome, as that he believed that this kind of outcome was right for a tale like this—as a metaphor for what, for him, would have been the true outcome: everyone dies . . . but everyone is OK.

[ArathornJax]

Or is it one of hope? In the story, Frodo is broken inwardly when the Ring is destroyed and the darkness that has taken him is also destroyed. The Eagles rescue then brings him to honor and acclaim in Gondor, but not in his home. In the Shire Frodo fails to discover himself and the inner peace he needs, so in the end, he leaves and sails into the West to be healed, to find himself and become whole. Do we know that happens for sure from the actually tale? No. Do we hope that happens? Yes, and I think that is the message, that Frodo had to be rescued so that we the reader, like Frodo could have hope that we to, at the end of life, will like Frodo, be healed, become whole from our travels in this world.

For me then, the rescuing of Frodo is one of hope, and I guess I could say that the emergence of the Eagles in the story is also one of hope, though in the case of Númenor they are also one of warning.

On a side note in Unfinished Tales in The Description of Númenor, Tolkien lets us know that at Meneltarma, the Pillars of Heaven that three Eagles would appear and descend, resting on the summit on the western side whenever someone approached the summit. During the Three Prayers of the King these same three Eagles did not descend, but "remained in the sky hovering above the people." They were called the Witnesses of Manwë and the Numenoreans believed they were sent from Aman to watch over the land and people. So in a way, they brought hope to the people that the Valar were watching over them and aware of them (?). I do assume from the text and their title that these were Great Eagles, but assumptions are dangerous.

In the north in the region of the Forostar in the Sorontol "abode many eagles." Not sure if these are Great Eagles, or just plain eagles, but there they were.

Finally, we know that there was an eyrie in the towers of the King's Palace where 2 eagles lived for two thousand years until after the reign of Tar-Ancalimon. From the text I am pretty sure that these also were Great Eagles. What I find interesting here is that for as long as the Kings and Queens believed in the Eru and honored their traditions and heritage, they Eagles remained. When they fell into disbelief, and greed, pride and other such wonderful virtues began to overtake their rulers and their people, the Eagles were withdrawn as was their hope. Finally, the Eagles of the Lord of the West (clouds with lightning?) were sent to warn Númenor of the angry of the Valar and to provide warning. Some heeded and repented, while the Ar-Pharazôn did not and sailed his fleet for war. As Amandil said to Elendil, "There is no hope for men."

So for me, the Eagles represent a hope, not that Eru or Manwë are going to directly intervene, but a hope that they are still interested in the world, and the hope that if we endure our struggles, to our limits, we too will find healing and peace as we hope Frodo did.

[Primula Baggins]

So for me, the Eagles represent a hope, not that Eru or Manwë are going to directly intervene, but a hope that they are still interested in the world, and the hope that if we endure our struggles, to our limits, we too will find healing and peace as we hope Frodo did.

Yes.

Yes, absolutely: We can't hope for Eru to stick in a finger and make everything perfect for us; we can hope Eru's compassion is there, even if we must suffer. In fact it's incumbent on us to hope that; it's the only way to peace. (Or so says Tolkien.)

Beautiful post, AJ.

[axordil]

I would say that what all of the rescues you mention have in common, jny, even that of Gandalf from Orthanc, is the restoration of a particular cosmic order. In one case it is clearly a theological order (Sam and Frodo's rescue); in another it is the restoration of a social order (Éowyn released from a wrongful fate, and Faramir saved to enable that); in another it is the restoration of a legal order, if you will (Gandalf released from Saruman's wrongful imprisonment).

In each of these cases there is a topsy-turvy quality that is reversed by the rescue. Saruman, fallen, has imposed his will on a peer without just cause. Éowyn, desperate, has taken on the mien of a warrior, and is on the verge of dying as one. Sam and Frodo, their quest accomplished, are about to share the fate of Gollum, in would in fact be a travesty of cosmic justice. In the last case there is a mythic travesty to be avoided as well: the hero(es) must return from the underworld, not perish there.

(Gandalf's return from the summit via eagle is more of a plot device in my mind than a true rescue--he could have made his way down, just not quickly enough to get where he was going. In the other cases the good guys were well and truly Screwed.)

Things at the end are as happily sorted out as the end of any Shakespearean comedy...which is to say, order has been restored, but not everyone is included in the new order. The agents of the competing order (Sauron, Saruman, the Witch-King, Denethor) are all gone at the end. And Frodo--well, Frodo made the newly restored order possible, but can never fit into it.

[Frelga]

Interesting posts, Arathorn and Ax.

To rewind a little - I often see it posed that the Eagles/Valar/Eru did not interfere because people of ME had to deal with their own problems to the best of their ability. That's fine as far as that goes and clinches nicely with the free will concept. We wouldn't want the Valar to take sides between Rohirrim and Dunlendings, say. However, I am not clear why the Ring is an internal ME problem when it was made by a Maia corrupted by a Vala and more powerful than any force inside ME.

On vulnerability of Eagles - V, I grant you that Gandalf was not your average old man. (Although his physical body actually was destroyed in confrontation with the Balrog.) Still, even Gandalf didn't feel sure that he could defeat Lord of Nazgûl, and that who the Eagles would be up against in their flight.