The Best ... and the Worst

[ToshoftheWuffingas]

It was a great narrative error and I suspect it was the result of cutting corners to get the final film out. If I had been stuck with making that narrative path work I would have had the Mordor armies fleeing in fear into the Anduin; similar enough to what happened at Pelargir in the book.

As for the scrubbing bubbles going up the streets of Minas Tirith

[Alatar]

The problem is that its a narrative error introduced in the books. I mean, why release the all-powerful army of undead right before the biggest battle? Gimli's joke wasn't too far off the mark in this case.

[axordil]

Well, the root of the narrative error in the books is that the whole Paths of the Dead/taking of the ships sequence takes place off stage, as it were, and is only recounted in the narrative. It's a fine literary device (especially for someone as steeped in the remnants of the oral tradition as JRRT), and works for creating suspense (where is Aragorn, anyway?) but you can only do it so often in film before the weight of flashbacks becomes too burdensome or too confusing.

[solicitr]

I suppose one *could* fudge the issue by asserting that Orcs weren't afraid of ghosts! (Just like the book-Nazgûl, the book-Dead use terror, not physical weapons).

More to the point, it was important in the Tolkienverse for (a) the folk of the coastal fiefs to 'do their bit;' and (2) for Aragorn to have some army made up of Gondorians to lead to victory. Although I'll grant that Tollers wasn't entirely successful. He devoted enormous energy to figuring out how much of this thread to tell in real-time, and how much in flashback; and wasn't tntirely happy with the results. The problem is that he (1) wanted to preserve the surprise of Aragorn's appearance, but (ii) knew that he couldn't have Gimli's narrative hold up the action forever in the subsequent chapter.

[axordil]

True. Really it's a formal limitation he was struggling against, and I sympathize deeply: few other things make a writer want to throw the figurative ms. up in the air and take up pottery as much as getting that far into a story and getting stuck on questions of form.

[MithLuin]

I watched the EE of RotK last night, and I agree that the green scrubbing bubbles are simplistic and ridiculous. But, well....they do beat Rankin/Bass' Battle of Five Armies of Dots. I think worse movie battle sequences could be found, and the inclusion of the Army of the Dead on the bad list was just to justify the inclusion of Pelennor Fields (which had many awesome parts) on the good list.

And I have no doubt that the person who wrote that review was a Tolkien fan. The way it is worded sounds so very, very familiar to me .

"Very few" may be correct, but it wasn't "No one." As far as Iavas was concerned, PJ could do very little wrong. He was very much in love with the movies as they were, and did not want to change them to what else they could be. And as far as Wildwood was concerned, the changes were too terrible to experience.

But I agree they were in the minority.

Personally, I find that I like the extended edition of the Paths of the Dead up until the OTT skull avalanche. I do grimace at the reference to Isildur as the last King of Gondor, but the wisps of smoke and crunching of bones is understatedly creepy (for PJ). It really does lead up well to the appearance of the Dead. And then....then it turns into the ball pit at McDonalds, and all creepiness and natural horror of death is gone.

That almost-then-misses can be a bigger disappointment than a complete miss, so I can understand why the scrubbing bubbles following the charge of the Rohirrim was just....

[Mrs.Underhill]

The problem is that its a narrative error introduced in the books. I mean, why release the all-powerful army of undead right before the biggest battle? Gimli's joke wasn't too far off the mark in this case.

Uh-huh, there's *no* narrative error in the book.
In the book it is established that the Dead's main weapon was fear. Fear and suprise and... oh well. They instill terror in the living, and only the extraodinary folks like Aragorn and his followers could withstand their presence. Therefore their only use in the book was to scare pirates off their ships, thus freeing Gondorian slaves (who couldn't flee as they were chained) who could then fight for Gondor; and removing the pirate threat.
The book's Army of Dead would be of absolutely no use on Pelennor, as what they would do is make all the human defenders and attackers flee in fear, leaving MT to the mercy of Orcs and Trolls, with only Gandalf and an occasional Elf to withstand them. As it was established that only ordinary mortals were afraid of the Dead. Legolas wasn't, and Orcs and Trolls and certainly Nazgûl wouldn't be afraid as well - the Dead would be like their lesser brothers.

So in the book it is absolutely logical that Aragorn would dismiss the Dead after capturing the ships. Also it would allow the heroism of Rohirrim and Gondorians matter, in being the decisive in winning the battle, and also would allow the King to come as a leader of his own future subjects (freed Gondorians). Rather than as a leader of scary Ghosts who terrified Minas Tirithians into submission.

So I say "meh!" for the Green Bubbles.

[Primula Baggins]

That's an excellent argument, Mrs.Underhill. Now, in the film, it would have been an error to release the Dead, given their much greater powers.

I have to confess that even in the book, I don't care for them much; I'm mainly grateful for them because they make possible the great moment (not in the film ) where the black-sailed ships of the Corsairs of Umbar arrive at the Pelennor just when the battle is going badly, and men quail in despair—and then the wind shifts and Aragorn's banner is unfurled. If I recall correctly, this is the shift in the wind that also drives back the smog of Mordor?

Anyway, that was a lovely moment, and if the device of the Dead seems ever so slightly creaky, I can understand its purpose: to provide a way for that moment to happen.

[vison]

You say only "meh" for the Green Bubbles?
You are entirely too polite.

[Frelga]

Anyway, that was a lovely moment, and if the device of the Dead seems ever so slightly creaky, I can understand its purpose: to provide a way for that moment to happen.

It was a lovely moment. Trust PJ to dump in a bucket of two-penny-ha'f-penny "reversals" and miss moments of greatest dramatic tension that books provide. The Black Ships, the near-repentance of Sméagol....

In the books, I suspect the narrative imperative for the Paths of the Dead is to prevent Aragorn from going to Minas Tirith with Gandalf or with Théoden. This avoids a premature confrontation with Denethor and allows Aragorn to save the day without stealing the thunder of the Rohirrim. And the errand is such that only a few supporting characters go with him, again leaving free him to shine.

And, of course, the change of wind and the unfurling standard are both brilliant.

I had thought that it would have been too difficult to fit the book events into the movie, but it wouldn't have taken that much more time than the inane skull avalanche and the kindergarten confrontation with the Corsairs. The ride to the stone of Erech would have to be skipped either way (too bad, I'd love to see the Dead riding in the darkness, spreading fear around them), but in EE Aragorn could emerge to find Corsairs attacking Gondorians and save the day as in the books. The TE would still have the surprise of the Black Ships, explained in three lines of dialog. Perhaps money was an issue?

[yovargas]

I think the real issue, if you've listened to the commentary, is simple - PJ didn't like the Dead story at all. He crammed it in seemingly out of some sense of necessity, but clearly he didn't really want to do any of it. I suspect that he just blew through it as quickly as possible to get it out of the way and devote his energy to things he was more excited about.

[Mrs.Underhill]

Anyway, that was a lovely moment, and if the device of the Dead seems ever so slightly creaky, I can understand its purpose: to provide a way for that moment to happen.

Oh my, I love this moment so much! Black banner revealing the White Tree, and Éomer - oh, Éomer throwing his sword in the air! And then Éomer and Aragorn meeting in the midst of the battle. *Melts*

And the thing is: it could have been easily kept as in the book, all you had to do in RotK was to make Aragorn arrive with freed Gondorians instead of the green guys. And spend the time used for shooting pirate negotiators (I can't tell you how much I hate trigger-happy Legolas in RotK! And Aragorn vs. MoS) to show slaves on the ships.

Yovargas, it's hard for me to believe PJ in that commentary, as it seemed he really was having fun there, otherwise why so much time spent on skulls, why bother with extra scenes for this subplot, and why put so much effort into Pirates of the Caribbean pop culture references?
Maybe PJ didn't like it at first, but then got in the game?

[vison]

PJ didn't understand what the Dead really were, and what their "power" was. To him they were just ghosts.

PJ didn't understand much of it, but he made it look awfully pretty. That's got to do.

*ducks*

[ToshoftheWuffingas]

I'm actually trying to do justice to this part of the story right now but I haven't got it polished up right yet.