In the new "Vanity Fair" there is an interesting article about the guy who wrote those "Left Behind" novels. The article goes into some detail about the influence of Jerry Falwell and the Moral Majority on American politics, etc., and a few other things, such as the apparently common belief among many fundamentalist Christians that we are living in The End Time.
This notion of The Rapture and The Second Coming, and Armageddon, and all, is as foreign to me as it is possible for any religious beliefs to be.
But what staggers me is the connection between the State of Israel and these Rapturists. It made my hair stand on end the first time I read about it, and this new article would make my hair stand even further on end if I had any hair.
The thing is that these Rapturists affect even Israeli politics. They want to see the State of Israel occupying the same territory as the biblical Kingdom of Israel, because once that happens the next step is the Rapture, then the Second Coming, and, eventually, the slaughter by a vengeful Jesus of all unbelievers. They will be bitterly disappointed to see any hope of peace.
I would like to know more about this. Is anyone here au courant with this?
The Rapture
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JewelSong
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Re: The Rapture
A "vengeful" Jesus seems a bit....well....vison wrote: the slaughter by a vengeful Jesus of all unbelievers.
"Live! Live! Live! Life is a banquet, and most poor suckers are starving to death!" - Auntie Mame
Vision, I am a conservative Christian. I’m not a fundamentalist, though I share a few of their views. A few, by no means all.
However, I do understand this business completely. I have tried five times to provide you with a point-by-point explanation, and I have failed. I will say that my own theology does not involve the physical state of Israel, and that in my fifty years I have never heard of such a thing as a Christ who “slaughter unbelievers.”
All of that is beside the point, however. I’ll say only this: There are some extreme and dangerous people who speak for religion, and there are some extreme and dangerous people who write articles for Vanity Fair. From the language you are using, and the tone you have taken from the article, it is plain to me that it was written by somebody utterly lacking in real understanding of fundamentalist belief, yet determined to characterize it in the most terrifying language possible. Happens all the time, and I do mean all the time.
If you trust me at all, calm your fears a bit. This is a “hit” piece, containing some truth and much hysteria.
However, I do understand this business completely. I have tried five times to provide you with a point-by-point explanation, and I have failed. I will say that my own theology does not involve the physical state of Israel, and that in my fifty years I have never heard of such a thing as a Christ who “slaughter unbelievers.”
All of that is beside the point, however. I’ll say only this: There are some extreme and dangerous people who speak for religion, and there are some extreme and dangerous people who write articles for Vanity Fair. From the language you are using, and the tone you have taken from the article, it is plain to me that it was written by somebody utterly lacking in real understanding of fundamentalist belief, yet determined to characterize it in the most terrifying language possible. Happens all the time, and I do mean all the time.
If you trust me at all, calm your fears a bit. This is a “hit” piece, containing some truth and much hysteria.
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Voronwë the Faithful
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I think I must have failed to make my point, Whistler. And I think, by the sound of your voice, that I've offended you. That was certainly not my intention! I'm sorry for it, nonetheless. And I do trust you! I trust you to be Whistler, and I also trust my own ineptness and clumsiness to have managed to offend you.
The article in Vanity Fair was interesting, but it wasn't the first such article I've read on that subject. The author was speaking about the "Left Behind" fans who seemingly accept the events described in his books as fictional accounts of a probable future. You don't share these beliefs, but evidently there are people who do, and they are the ones I'm interested in. When prominent Israeli politicians are drawn into --- or choose to enter --- the picture, I think it's important. What I want to know is, are these people really an important influence in American politics? In Israeli politics? How on earth will I ever find out if I don't ask?
I tried reading one of these "Left Behind" books and I failed to read it all through. It was a terrible book, not because of the subject matter, but because it was a terrible book. It could have been written by Danielle Steele, and that's about the worst insult I can give a book. Yet they are hugely popular, with millions and millions sold.
As for the "vengeful Christ", horrid image that it is, I didn't coin the term. The passages in which LaHay describes the Last Battle are dreadful, in both senses: dreadfully written depictions of a dreadful event. I couldn't read the whole book, but skipped to this part and it's so bad I'm surprised the paper didn't burst into flames.
At any rate, I'll leave it at that.
The article in Vanity Fair was interesting, but it wasn't the first such article I've read on that subject. The author was speaking about the "Left Behind" fans who seemingly accept the events described in his books as fictional accounts of a probable future. You don't share these beliefs, but evidently there are people who do, and they are the ones I'm interested in. When prominent Israeli politicians are drawn into --- or choose to enter --- the picture, I think it's important. What I want to know is, are these people really an important influence in American politics? In Israeli politics? How on earth will I ever find out if I don't ask?
I tried reading one of these "Left Behind" books and I failed to read it all through. It was a terrible book, not because of the subject matter, but because it was a terrible book. It could have been written by Danielle Steele, and that's about the worst insult I can give a book. Yet they are hugely popular, with millions and millions sold.
As for the "vengeful Christ", horrid image that it is, I didn't coin the term. The passages in which LaHay describes the Last Battle are dreadful, in both senses: dreadfully written depictions of a dreadful event. I couldn't read the whole book, but skipped to this part and it's so bad I'm surprised the paper didn't burst into flames.
At any rate, I'll leave it at that.
Dig deeper.
I’m sure the book is bad, Vision. Here’s what’s happened: Christians have been so marginalized by the media in general that, when anything is produced in the arts that actually presents them in a positive light, they gobble it up as though they were starving. Consequently they are painfully indiscriminate, and they bring further ridicule upon themselves. And so the circle goes.
You did not offend me! I am upset only over my inability to provide you with satisfactory answers. And I will say this: for a Christian, there is probably no endeavor less constructive than to attempt to explain the Book of Revelations to a non-believer. Only slightly less constructive is for Christians to seek to interpret it among themselves. Our business is to do the works of kindness, forgiveness and compassion. God will take care of the future however He sees fit, and doubtless there will be some big surprises in store for us all.
That’s the best I can do, as I cannot speak for anybody but myself.
You did not offend me! I am upset only over my inability to provide you with satisfactory answers. And I will say this: for a Christian, there is probably no endeavor less constructive than to attempt to explain the Book of Revelations to a non-believer. Only slightly less constructive is for Christians to seek to interpret it among themselves. Our business is to do the works of kindness, forgiveness and compassion. God will take care of the future however He sees fit, and doubtless there will be some big surprises in store for us all.
That’s the best I can do, as I cannot speak for anybody but myself.
I've read several of the Left Behind books. I really liked the first one, thought the second one was... less than good, and they went downhill from there...
It's rather common for christians to at some point become obsessed with the book of revelation, and wonder when that end time will come. It's common becuase Christians, like all other groups in the world, are often persecuted or have to deal with predjudices against them, and wish for a time when they won't have to worry about that any more.
There is much in Revelation that makes for a good fantastical story. Lahaye and Jenkins wrote their book at a time when no such story had been written for some time, and they were able to churn out another dozen books in quick succession, with people eating them up. They are not in any way a scholarly approach to viewing prophecy in Revelation. They are taking bits and pieces of what's there, and making them into an interesting story.
A Revisionist take on the book... if you will
It's a shame that so many Christians take so little time to read their own bibles that they would believe much of the junk in those books, but that is the case. It makes real biblical's scholars jobs much harder. Because frankly, they aren't good writers. They don't tell people what they want to hear.
It's kind of the same thing Jesus had to deal with when he showed up the FIRST time. People expected him to be their King, to lay waste to their enemies and turn Israel into a great kingdom. That was not his goal, and people's inabilities to understand that was unfortunate. They had built up this idea for so long, and when he finally showed up, it wasn't what they expected.
My favorite author of Christian literature these days is Paul Maier. He's written a few books, my favorite is "A Skeleton in God's Closet" which tells the story of what might happen were the bones of Jesus found in a tomb somewhere. It presents a very realistic view of how the world might react, and is at the same time quite the adventure story.
Its sequel, "More than a Skeleton" deals with someone appearing who seems to be the second coming of Christ. He has some rather choice opinions of the Lahaye and Jenkins books in that story.
The thing is, he's a real biblical scholar, and despite well written books, his don't sell well, because he doesn't just tell people what they want to hear. He tells them where they might be wrong it what they think.
For example, in the first book, they carbon date a sample from the dig, and go through exactly how accurate it is, even bringing in tree-ring dating for accuracy... just because so many Fundamentalists argue it is imprecise. I actually didn't really understand what he was talking about until the evolution discussion on TORC.
Anyway. I realize I haven't said much about the Rapture or anything, but I don't think anyone can "engineer" the circumstances required for the end of the world. I tend not to think on it too much, because it will happen or not regardless of what I do or think. I used to be caught up in it and the various theories, but there's nothing to gain from it. It's a poor way to try and convince someone of the truth in the Bible, but it's often used in such a way. "Look it's the end times, convert or you'll be left behind!" I don't buy into that type of thinking. People should not become Christians out of fear, but out of love.
It's rather common for christians to at some point become obsessed with the book of revelation, and wonder when that end time will come. It's common becuase Christians, like all other groups in the world, are often persecuted or have to deal with predjudices against them, and wish for a time when they won't have to worry about that any more.
There is much in Revelation that makes for a good fantastical story. Lahaye and Jenkins wrote their book at a time when no such story had been written for some time, and they were able to churn out another dozen books in quick succession, with people eating them up. They are not in any way a scholarly approach to viewing prophecy in Revelation. They are taking bits and pieces of what's there, and making them into an interesting story.
A Revisionist take on the book... if you will
It's a shame that so many Christians take so little time to read their own bibles that they would believe much of the junk in those books, but that is the case. It makes real biblical's scholars jobs much harder. Because frankly, they aren't good writers. They don't tell people what they want to hear.
It's kind of the same thing Jesus had to deal with when he showed up the FIRST time. People expected him to be their King, to lay waste to their enemies and turn Israel into a great kingdom. That was not his goal, and people's inabilities to understand that was unfortunate. They had built up this idea for so long, and when he finally showed up, it wasn't what they expected.
My favorite author of Christian literature these days is Paul Maier. He's written a few books, my favorite is "A Skeleton in God's Closet" which tells the story of what might happen were the bones of Jesus found in a tomb somewhere. It presents a very realistic view of how the world might react, and is at the same time quite the adventure story.
Its sequel, "More than a Skeleton" deals with someone appearing who seems to be the second coming of Christ. He has some rather choice opinions of the Lahaye and Jenkins books in that story
.The thing is, he's a real biblical scholar, and despite well written books, his don't sell well, because he doesn't just tell people what they want to hear. He tells them where they might be wrong it what they think.
For example, in the first book, they carbon date a sample from the dig, and go through exactly how accurate it is, even bringing in tree-ring dating for accuracy... just because so many Fundamentalists argue it is imprecise. I actually didn't really understand what he was talking about until the evolution discussion on TORC.
Anyway. I realize I haven't said much about the Rapture or anything, but I don't think anyone can "engineer" the circumstances required for the end of the world. I tend not to think on it too much, because it will happen or not regardless of what I do or think. I used to be caught up in it and the various theories, but there's nothing to gain from it. It's a poor way to try and convince someone of the truth in the Bible, but it's often used in such a way. "Look it's the end times, convert or you'll be left behind!" I don't buy into that type of thinking. People should not become Christians out of fear, but out of love.
For the TROUBLED may you find PEACE
For the DESPAIRING may you find HOPE
For the LONELY may you find LOVE
For the SKEPTICAL may you find FAITH
-Frances C. Arrillaga 1941-1995
For the DESPAIRING may you find HOPE
For the LONELY may you find LOVE
For the SKEPTICAL may you find FAITH
-Frances C. Arrillaga 1941-1995
Thanx, halplm. Interesting post.
I like this sentence: "People should not become Christians out of fear, but out of love."
My, what a different world it would be, eh? When we act out of fear, we are almost always wrong. When we act out of love, we are almost always right.
So those who turn to god out of fear are nearly always mistaken in what they do afterward. Those who turn to god out of love are halfway to heaven.
I like this sentence: "People should not become Christians out of fear, but out of love."
My, what a different world it would be, eh? When we act out of fear, we are almost always wrong. When we act out of love, we are almost always right.
So those who turn to god out of fear are nearly always mistaken in what they do afterward. Those who turn to god out of love are halfway to heaven.
Dig deeper.
There is a small group among Jewish denominations who has extreme beliefs in this direction as well.
Some of the Hasidim believe that it was contrary to God's law for the State of Israel to be founded at all because Jews are not supposed to reclaim the 'promised land' until after the Messiah comes. One group has been so adamant in this belief that they have helped fund Palestinian terrorist groups since 1948. They organize seminars (for their own followers) wherein they lay out the scripture support for terminating Israel and sending all Jews into diaspora again.
Then there's a somewhat larger group of Hasidic Jews that also engage in gun-running, etc. in order to kill all the Palestinians. I had an acquaintance who got involved with this activity and, needless to say, that was the end of our contact with one another.
My feeling about all of this is that there are some people who are attracted by movements which revolve around violence, or around a single violent event which is on the horizon. It allows some kind of release for them, a focal point for frustrations and other deranged feelings within themselves. Very dangerous to the rest of us, of course, but the religion they belong to doesn't seem to have anything to do with this beyond providing the content of their story. I've seen this kind of proclivity among Jews, Christians, Moslems and Hindus.
The only place I haven't seen it so far is among Buddhists.
Jn
Some of the Hasidim believe that it was contrary to God's law for the State of Israel to be founded at all because Jews are not supposed to reclaim the 'promised land' until after the Messiah comes. One group has been so adamant in this belief that they have helped fund Palestinian terrorist groups since 1948. They organize seminars (for their own followers) wherein they lay out the scripture support for terminating Israel and sending all Jews into diaspora again.
Then there's a somewhat larger group of Hasidic Jews that also engage in gun-running, etc. in order to kill all the Palestinians. I had an acquaintance who got involved with this activity and, needless to say, that was the end of our contact with one another.
My feeling about all of this is that there are some people who are attracted by movements which revolve around violence, or around a single violent event which is on the horizon. It allows some kind of release for them, a focal point for frustrations and other deranged feelings within themselves. Very dangerous to the rest of us, of course, but the religion they belong to doesn't seem to have anything to do with this beyond providing the content of their story. I've seen this kind of proclivity among Jews, Christians, Moslems and Hindus.
The only place I haven't seen it so far is among Buddhists.
Jn
A fool's paradise is a wise man's hell.
vison, can I have your permission to use this quote the next time I'm at a meeting with Education Ministry reps?vison wrote:Our points of view are so far apart we are almost at the same place, going around the other way
Well said, hal. Fear is such a relentlessly heartless driver. We humans live under its shadow far too much. I think we should try to reserve our fear for the "real and present" dangers of life, rather than the "what might be's".hal wrote:People should not become Christians out of fear, but out of love.
I am not a Christian, as you know, but yes........these three things, these three essential qualities of humanness could change the world, and ease the fears of untold millions.Whistler wrote:Our business is to do the works of kindness, forgiveness and compassion
Who could be so lucky? Who comes to a lake for water and sees the reflection of moon.
Jalal ad-Din Rumi
I just wanted to say how thoroughly I agree with this statement.Whistler wrote:And I will say this: for a Christian, there is probably no endeavor less constructive than to attempt to explain the Book of Revelations to a non-believer. Only slightly less constructive is for Christians to seek to interpret it among themselves. Our business is to do the works of kindness, forgiveness and compassion. God will take care of the future however He sees fit, and doubtless there will be some big surprises in store for us all.
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Primula Baggins
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As do I.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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truehobbit
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Good posts on an interesting and sad subject - I agree with Jny about the motivation of the people who follow such ideas.
However, I still don't understand what "The Rapture" is - something to do with the end of the world, I suppose, but what's rapturous about it?
However, I still don't understand what "The Rapture" is - something to do with the end of the world, I suppose, but what's rapturous about it?
but being a cheerful hobbit he had not needed hope, as long as despair could be postponed.
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Primula Baggins
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I understand it has something to do with every living believer being caught up into the air—into the sky—and meeting Jesus there. People are supposed to literally vanish. It's called "The Rapture" in this set of beliefs, and it happens in those books at the start—the series is called "Left Behind" because it's about the people who are not "raptured away" and must work out their own redemption on Earth.
There is a bumper sticker I've seen a few times: IN CASE OF RAPTURE, THIS CAR WILL BE WITHOUT A DRIVER.
There is another bumper sticker I saw one time: IN CASE OF RAPTURE, CAN I HAVE YOUR CAR?
There is a bumper sticker I've seen a few times: IN CASE OF RAPTURE, THIS CAR WILL BE WITHOUT A DRIVER.
There is another bumper sticker I saw one time: IN CASE OF RAPTURE, CAN I HAVE YOUR CAR?
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Sassafras
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No comment other than to mention in passing that when I did read the Bible during my teenage years, Revelations always fascinated me ... I would read it many times over.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture
And from the Catholic perspective:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture
And from the Catholic perspective:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp
Ever mindful of the maxim that brevity is the soul of wit, axordil sums up the Sil:
"Too many Fingolfins, not enough Sams."
Yes.
Dear and most respected Whistler -- I also love these wise words of yours:
It struck me, to be honest, as evil, a word I usually avoid like crazy (not a very Quakerly sort of thing!). It was unbelievably hateful, violent and cruel. It stung my hands.
I KNOW that such a thing can't represent the hearts of Christians generally.
But when earlier you equate the "extreme and dangerous people who speak for religion" with the "extreme and dangerous people who write articles for Vanity Fair," I can't help but suspect that your opinion comes from not having read those Left Behind books. I picked one up (if I recall correctly, it came from the related children's series) in an airport bookstore in curiosity, and being a fast reader, whipped through it until I could bear it no more and had to put it back on the shelf.Our business is to do the works of kindness, forgiveness and compassion. God will take care of the future however He sees fit, and doubtless there will be some big surprises in store for us all.
It struck me, to be honest, as evil, a word I usually avoid like crazy (not a very Quakerly sort of thing!). It was unbelievably hateful, violent and cruel. It stung my hands.
I KNOW that such a thing can't represent the hearts of Christians generally.
Oh, dear! I’m a Chronicles Of Narnia man, myself.
And now that I think of it, I’ve read a few reviews (of the film) in which the “cruelty” of that story is criticized. One critic has asked, why can’t it end with everybody becoming friends?
Because it would be nonsense, utterly at odds with itself. It comes to this: Christianity is about salvation. That means being delivered from something that is very, very bad. To attempt to tell a Christian story in which there is no darkness, no horror, no judgment, is to whitewash the subject and do it a grave injustice.
Obviously these books retain the darkness and horror pretty well! The question is, what attitude do they take toward it? If they take any delight in the suffering of the unrighteous, they do not speak with a Christian voice. Jesus may strike as he will, but we may not. Nor may we wish to see suffering, even among those whom we judge to be evil. The suffering of the wicked should grieve us as much as our own.
I suspect that this “gotcha!” thinking is the mentality to which you refer, and if so I agree that it is very unfortunate.
And now that I think of it, I’ve read a few reviews (of the film) in which the “cruelty” of that story is criticized. One critic has asked, why can’t it end with everybody becoming friends?
Because it would be nonsense, utterly at odds with itself. It comes to this: Christianity is about salvation. That means being delivered from something that is very, very bad. To attempt to tell a Christian story in which there is no darkness, no horror, no judgment, is to whitewash the subject and do it a grave injustice.
Obviously these books retain the darkness and horror pretty well! The question is, what attitude do they take toward it? If they take any delight in the suffering of the unrighteous, they do not speak with a Christian voice. Jesus may strike as he will, but we may not. Nor may we wish to see suffering, even among those whom we judge to be evil. The suffering of the wicked should grieve us as much as our own.
I suspect that this “gotcha!” thinking is the mentality to which you refer, and if so I agree that it is very unfortunate.
Last edited by Whistler on Mon Dec 05, 2005 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I would never assume that those hateful books speak for[/] "Christians" as a whole.
But they are SO popular! They sell, and sell, and sell. They have made rich men out of their authors and publishers.
I am sorry to say I believe they resonate strongly with SOME people. There are people, of all religious and philosophical persuasions, who long for an Armageddon, who long for "the unbelievers" to fall into the fiery pit. No matter which kind of unbelievers, no matter which kind of fiery pit. There are "eco-terrorists", for instance, who love to imagine the extinction of the human race, so Earth can "return" to some imagined purity, without Man to dirty it.
My original question, however, was to ask if these people really have any influence in the US or Israeli politics. Jnyusa's post was interesting, in that regard.
But they are SO popular! They sell, and sell, and sell. They have made rich men out of their authors and publishers.
I am sorry to say I believe they resonate strongly with SOME people. There are people, of all religious and philosophical persuasions, who long for an Armageddon, who long for "the unbelievers" to fall into the fiery pit. No matter which kind of unbelievers, no matter which kind of fiery pit. There are "eco-terrorists", for instance, who love to imagine the extinction of the human race, so Earth can "return" to some imagined purity, without Man to dirty it.
My original question, however, was to ask if these people really have any influence in the US or Israeli politics. Jnyusa's post was interesting, in that regard.
Dig deeper.
Whistler, the darkness and horror of those books (from what I saw) is in the behavior and attitude of the Christians. Not just that they are fighting something evil, but that they abandon what's most human in us in the fight. Even the Narnia books have a lot to say about compassion, and about how God's mercy may be beyond petty human expectations.
I'm with Puddleglum on this: if the mercy of God is just a fairy tale, then give me the fairy tale, rather than some "real truth" of a horrific vengeful Christ tearing people apart.
I'm with Puddleglum on this: if the mercy of God is just a fairy tale, then give me the fairy tale, rather than some "real truth" of a horrific vengeful Christ tearing people apart.