Bad Language?

[anthriel]

[Note: I split off this discussion from the thread on Video Games. Anthy, feel free to rename it if you like. - VtF]

It is tough, Prim.

I just grounded my boy for saying the "F" word.

Am I puritanical? Maybe. Has he heard that word before? Sure. Will he simply learn to say it in places and to people where mom won't find out? If he's smart he will.

So I guess the goal is not to try to convince him that the words don't exist, or that he's an evil person for saying them; the goal is to teach that that's not what we place value on in OUR home. There has to be some respite from coarseness and... more on topic... enjoyment of graphic violence in the world, and I would like that to be his home.


Edit: HALPLM J.R.R. PURIST!!! You just go clean up your room, mister, and think about what you've said.

While mom runs out to the library to pick up a certain worm book, that is.

[Primula Baggins]

Thanks, hal. It's mainly a matter of keeping on trying.

The "F" word. . . . hoo boy.

We don't use coarse language at home, any of us, nor do the kids' friends when they're here. I honestly don't know exactly how they talk at school or outside adult hearing. Mine are older than yours, Anthy, so I don't feel able to say, "You may not ever use foul language," but I have every right to say, "You may not use foul language in my hearing" and to advise them not to use it around adults or people they don't know.

That kind of language really isn't used in mainstream adult society or mainstream workplaces, and it can be a handicap if you can't help using it. So I'm glad my kids are learning to be fluent in both forms of speech.

Home as a respite from coarseness is exactly it, Anthy. I know you would agree that we're not trying to turn out prissy Little Lord Fauntleroys here, but it does make sense to provide an atmosphere and entertainment at home that are a notch above the default available in the media and at school. Then when they're out on their own they at least know that there are choices beyond what advertisements and peer pressure push on them.

[anthriel]

Gosh, Prim. It's almost as if we were sisters, or something.

[halplm]

"halplm j.r.r. purist" eh?

I suppose I could have worse "full" names

The language thing is odd. I always remember my parents being extremely concerned about what language there was in movies I saw YEARS after everything said at school far surpassed what's allowed in "acceptable" conversation.

[Primula Baggins]

That's a battle I gave up a long time ago, for the reason you mention, hal.

As long as my kids are clearly not using words like that habitually (because I have never heard them do so and I'm around them a lot), I'm satisfied.

[yovargas]

I think Prim and Anthy should have to watch the first 10 minutes of the South Park movie.

[halplm]

LOL

[Primula Baggins]

I have seen all of the SOUTH PARK movie. Not with my kids.

I saw THE ARISTOCRATS, too, and laughed insanely. For that Mr. Prim and I waited until the kids were all gone overnight.

What's okay for adults is not the same as what's okay for (my, and I believe other people's, but it's not my choice) kids.

[axordil]

That kind of language really isn't used in mainstream adult society or mainstream workplaces, and it can be a handicap if you can't help using it. So I'm glad my kids are learning to be fluent in both forms of speech.

Define "mainstream."

But yeah, being able to restrain yourself opens a lot of doors.

[Primula Baggins]

Ax, I suppose all I mean by "mainstream" is standard ordinary workplaces, especially where workers deal with the general public. But even where they don't, there is often formality in manners and dress, especially in professional offices. To be ready for most careers, you have to be able to handle yourself in places like that.

I mean, there's the old tip for younger workers: dress and act like the person whose job you want, not like other people working your job.

[vison]

A perfectly valid thing to say to kids: we don't talk like that in our family.

My husband is not a cussing guy. I don't think the gassoons have ever heard him drop the F-bomb. (I blush to admit they have heard me do it twice - in traffic.)

I never heard that word said aloud until I was 17 or something. I lived in a very different world! I don't like the constant casual dropping of the word. And it is not acceptable in most work places, as Prim mentions. One day a few years ago I was working one-on-one with one of our guys and he said that word about every other word. Two days I put up with this, giving him the offended look and asking him kindly to watch his language. He seemed oblivious. I got madder and madder and finally said to him at about the top of my voice, "If you don't f-ing stop saying f-, I'm gonna f-ing lose my f-ing temper and f-ing fire you, so f-ing pay f-ing attention to what I'm saying and f-ing stop saying f-." He shut up, but he told my husband later that he didn't think I should have talked to him like that!!!

However, we have an aquaintance who never swears, never says any obscenities, and yet every word that comes out of his mouth is crude and ugly. I'd sooner hear the F word than the stuff he says to his family.

[JewelSong]

I had a neighbor who had no trouble f--- or s--- but absolutely would NEVER say "G-d damn" or any or its derivatives. To her, that was swearing and unacceptable. The "F" word and the "S" word were just...well, coarse language and sometimes appropriate. But saying "G-d damn you" - now THAT was truly awful and maybe even a sin (in her eyes.)

I tend to agree...

[axordil]

The reason I brought up the question of mainstream workplaces is because we have a guy at my office, in that pit of depravity called IBM, who will start cursing a blue streak if he gets sufficiently annoyed. He used to have an office instead of a cube, so I suspect he got used to the ability to, ah, speak freely.

He's been with us for 20 years and clearly considers himself irreplacable. Normally I wouldn't agree that ANYONE is, but we've downsized to the point where he's the only person that understands why parts of our software are like that. So we put up with the cursing, and his attitude, and his intruding into other people's work that's not his responsibility.

Interstingly enough, I heard a story on NPR the other day about companies who determine the hidden costs of "star" employees with attitudes to see if they're really worth it...and we are re-engineering one of the products from the ground up without his input (he's too busy on other projects). If that works well, the other main product will follow...and suddenly he won't be nearly as irreplacable.

Patience.

[vison]

So, patience can involve being devious, eh?

Well, I guess, in fact, that being devious ALWAYS means being patient.

Good luck!!!

[Alatar]

Swearing is a fact of life in Ireland. Everyone does it but nobody means it. As a result, its pretty hard to insult us. We're too used to our friends calling us dickheads to pay attention when someone really means it.

My bosses from the top down, all swear. In a peculiar way, guys on the floor have more respect for a manager who isn't "above them" and a little swearing is common ground. Its a cultural thing.

[nerdanel]

My bosses from the top down, all swear. In a peculiar way, guys on the floor have more respect for a manager who isn't "above them" and a little swearing is common ground. Its a cultural thing.

Well, then call the US multicultural The lawyers I know, by and large, are a foulmouthed bunch. In litigation, it seems common to trash talk the other side. It's more fun to be battling the "clueless f******* d****** attorney" on the other side than "our worthy adversary who we view with the greatest respect," I guess. I actually have never done a lot of swearing at work, because I'd rather be respectful of the sensibilities of anyone who might silently be uncomfortable, and I'd rather not tread on the wrong side of any unspoken rule that says that more junior people are supposed to use better language, if there is one. And in the current workplace (switched jobs a week ago), haven't heard a single profane word from anyone at any level yet and expect that to continue.

I don't mind a "clean" workplace, just as I enjoy HoF as a "clean" messageboard, but I see no harm whatsoever in cursing, as long as you're not doing it so much you lose your ability to communicate (some people seem to interject swearing into conversation so frequently that it is hard to make out the substance of the sentence). Fact is, "swear words" serve a purpose for most of us. They express strong feeling. And most people who do not use them have come up with surrogate words to express that same strength of feeling (which I find...strange.) I mean, if the sentiment you're conveying is "damn", then how does it somehow become better if you use "darn" to mean the damn same thing? If you're thinking, "F****** idiot," then are you really doing something better if you say (or ultimately train yourself to think), "Flippin' idiot" or "Freakin' idiot"? I find it a bit annoying - just say the actual word, it won't kill you.

JS' point is valid, though. "G-ddamn" is actually in a different category for me. It just sounds presumptuous to me - you're essentially saying, "God [should] damn something or someone..." - which probably isn't actually what you mean (and if it is, you may want to think about why you hate that person or thing quite that much ). So I understand why people say "damn" or "goshdarn it" instead.

Prim, nothing wrong with Googling the kids - my mom does the same, and actually most people I know seem to google friends from time to time.

[Primula Baggins]

I do use "bad language" under extreme provocation, and it is a way to relieve those strong feelings. My kids have heard me do it. But we're talking once or twice a year. In a way, not swearing in everyday talk is an advantage: the words are there, fresh and unworn, when you really do need them

I don't really see how, say, people who use the F word two or three times in every sentence get any relief of feelings from it. Such as stories I hear about Army life where in day-to-day conversation it's the only adjective, many of the verbs, and a fair number of the nouns.

I think in earlier generations it was a sign that men were talking to men and women were nowhere nearby; it was a way men had of letting their hair down, so to speak. Probably a pleasure, in a way.

[superwizard]

Well I really believe that those who swear on every other word are annoying and they're not helping themselves. In my case I swear but very rarely (and never in front of my parents). I don't use words like 'darn' instead of damn yet I don't enjoy it when people have to say the F word before every word (I knew someone like that-it get very annoying). I believe a balance is the best.

(culture plays into this significantly I believe)

[axordil]

The problem with swearing continuously is that it doesn't leave you much room to escalate verbally. I like having the f-nuclear option out there if needed, and I do use it now and again amongst the impolite company of my friends, but it would just never occur to me to use it at work, except perhaps under my breath.

Of course, I used to have a coworker that cursed continuously sotto voce so that only people in adjacent cubes could hear it, too...he was also the one convince I was stalking him.

I do recall at a job once having a piece of equipment break in my hands, and dropping a heartfelt GD into the room. A coworker of a religious sensibility indicated that I shouldn't be using the Lord's name in vain, so I informed her that I wasn't--I indeed desired for Jehovah, the Lord of Hosts and Creator of All Things, to consign the piece of equipment that had broken to eternal perdition and mechanical torment.

She kind of kept her distance after that.

[superwizard]

I do recall at a job once having a piece of equipment break in my hands, and dropping a heartfelt GD into the room. A coworker of a religious sensibility indicated that I shouldn't be using the Lord's name in vain, so I informed her that I wasn't--I indeed desired for Jehovah, the Lord of Hosts and Creator of All Things, to consign the piece of equipment that had broken to eternal perdition and mechanical torment.

She kind of kept her distance after that.