Rape shield

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Lidless
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Post by Lidless »

nerdanel wrote:Should he not be permitted to show that she has previously been intimate with eight other guys under similar circumstances, especially if it's otherwise "he said, she said" and that's the best he's got? It's a hard question.
Rape cases are notoriously difficult to prosecute, especially when many are in private and many involve being on a date with someone. To complicate things, as mentioned, the woman might not struggle for fear of greater harm being done, despite verbal protestations, and so physical evidence might be inconclusive at best.

So unfortunately in many cases it comes down to a balance of probabilities, the 'he said, she said' state. And that is where the credibility and past behaviour comes in, where the jury and infer and extrapolate - but not necessarily to the right conclusion. A weighted average.

Someone here hypothesized that a defendant might want to introduce the alleged victim's past sexual history (if fairly active):
... to trivialize the charge, that is, to introduce the thinking to the jury, what does it really matter if a woman who has allowed intimacy with so many men, has intimacy with yet another forced upon her? And to generally prejudice the jury against the woman (since as you observed they would probably think worse of her if she had many sexual partners).
I reject those hypotheses out of hand. I think it would be to increase in the jury's mind the chance that she actually consented to sex.

The arguments in favour of introducing history, whether it is rape or another crime, I think are flawed - to allow so would be inherently prejudicial against women with active sex lives. "No" means "no" at any time.

In a criminal trial, it is 'beyond a reasonable doubt' and the facts at the time must speak for themselves. In a civil trial it becomes a balance of probabilities, so I would be in favour of history.

What I strongly and utterly object to is the introduction of whether the woman is a prostitute. It has not, and cannot have, any bearing on the matter. If a prostitute is forced into sex by a pimp or boyfriend, then all that means is that she has been raped many times in the past. If she is not forced into sex, then she consents to have sex and has the ability to say no like everybody else. She doesn't have to walk up to every passing car and she can make excuses if it is a brothel.
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Faramond
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Post by Faramond »

Why bother having a jury system at all if we're going to treat them as moronic nitwits who can't be trusted with any information?

In general, I think withholding information is a bad idea. Suppressing facts is not the route to justice. It's amazing to me what the legal profession considers relevant and irrelevant.

On this specific subject, I won't say anything, first because I don't really know enough about it, and second because there is only one "acceptable" viewpoint to have so it's a rather boring subject. There is some interesting discussion in this thread to be sure, but in the broad view every post says, "Rape shield is good".
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MithLuin
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Post by MithLuin »

This is part of why I do not like the "two consenting adults" approach.
In reality, I don't want the government telling people who they may (or may not) have sex with. So, I understand what "consenting adults" is all about.

But no one should be subjected to digging up all the dirt of their past and having people vouch for their character to prove they were a victim of rape - that's just...rotten.

Consent should be acknowledged publicly (as in marriage), so that there is no doubt or question as to anyone taking advantage.

Yes, I know that's awkward...it just...well... would remove that question. After all, someone can be manipulated into granting consent, too. What if she's been saying "no" all night, but for some stupid reason didn't get the heck away from this guy? How much alcohol was consumed before she said yes? Coercion doesn't have to just mean putting a gun to someone's head. (And maybe that shouldn't be criminally prosecuted, either - I'm just saying that spur-of-the-moment consent is a bit murky, too)

"Evidence" wouldn't just be physical - you would question both the victim and the accused of their actions that day (and the following day). Inconsistencies in the story would still be "evidence", right?

In the example given, she claims she was forced upstairs. How? Did he drag her? Well, then, does the carpet, banister, whatever confirm her story? She went willingly, but he threatened her with violence? Well, okay, how? A weapon? What? Just his hands? I mean, under questioning, the details of the story might be something that can be proved or disproved with evidence, or other witnesses (did anyone see the car leave? arrive? what time was it?)

[In 'To Kill a Mockingbird', it matters that the defendent was missing his left hand, while the girl's father was left-handed.]

As to whether or not it matters - a prostitute can be raped. Just because she agrees to have sex with different men all the time, doesn't mean she agreed to have sex with that man. Maybe he scared her... after all, some men don't just have sex with prostitutes; they kill them. Maybe she didn't need the money that day. Whatever. It can still be rape.

And just because this girl has said she always wanted to wait until she was married does not mean she didn't have a consensual one-night-stand. These things do happen, after all - and her guilt afterwards may have inspired her to call it 'rape.'

Someone may always hang up on telemarketers, have a proven track record of saying "no thanks, bye" every time.... but that doesn't mean they didn't talk to this telemarketer. That sort of thing.

But a jury is going to be swayed by backstory, and form opinions on whether it seems like rape this time. I think that shielding would be helpful, to prevent those prejudices from affecting the case at hand.

And I know that isn't entirely satisfying...that a woman can be raped, and her word against her attacker isn't enough to convict him.... but you do have to be proven guilty. If the jury is in doubt...he walks. This time.

And young women are told cautionary tales of not getting into 'dangerous' circumstances....
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Post by TheEllipticalDisillusion »

In general, I think withholding information is a bad idea. Suppressing facts is not the route to justice. It's amazing to me what the legal profession considers relevant and irrelevant.
Withholding what information, though? If one side withholds information relevant to the case, yes, that is bad. The only relevant information to a case is that information which is relevant (yes, an obvious tautology). If person A is on trial for manslaughter, the fact that he also cheated on his wife two years ago, throws eggs at children or regularly spits on homeless people is irrelevant to whether or not he committed manslaughter.
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Post by Faramond »

Indeed, TED. All that information is irrelevant. But why does it have to be withheld? Why can't it just be ignored by the jury? I think I've figured out what I want. I want jurors who don't need their hands held figuring out what is relevant and what is not. I think the rape shield should be that any juror who thinks the past sexual history of a woman is relevant is kicked off the jury.

No, I don't know how to go about doing this.
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Post by TheEllipticalDisillusion »

You can't and won't know that until it comes down to the deliberation. Once the information is out there, too, you can't be certain that it won't influence the jury's decision in some way.
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MithLuin
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Post by MithLuin »

Right - as much as we like to think that justice is blind...the jury isn't. They see the defendent (and the accuser) in court, and form an opinion. They may not let that opinion influence their decision, but they may, even if they don't think they do. How someone comes across is very subjective, and digging up dirt on them can sway that.

When I was a teenager, my mother thought that practically all the guys I was friends with (or knew, or had just met...) were good looking. I made some disparaging remarks about a guy before she met him once, and she decided (after she met him), that he wasn't all that good looking. Thing is...this was a guy who was quite popular with girls (a player ;)), and generally considered to be very good looking.

So, was my Mom's opinion on how "pretty" he was swayed by what I had told her earlier? Most likely. But then, maybe she just has different tastes from high school girls ;).

The jury has a limited time to form an opinion of a person they've never met before, so the court should be careful not to sway them too blatantly. I'm not suggesting someone would be found guilty of murder based on the clothes they wore... [unless said clothes contained blood splatter and gunshot residue ;)], but the impression of the person (as a whole) is going to convince (or fail to convince) the jury.
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Post by axordil »

I think that including information that attempts to establish what kind of a person a defendant or victim has been is by definition problematic, because while it would matter to most of us in terms of judging them in everyday life, whether it should matter in court is another question. Rotten people can be victims too. Otherwise swell people can still commit crimes.

That sort of information would be very, very difficult for jurors to disregard, whether it was relevant to the case at hand or not, because it frames the narrative they have to create in their heads.
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Post by Jnyusa »

I agree. And attorneys on both sides try to create a narrative because people find narratives more convincing than individual facts. This all by itself is a problem with our jury system (well researched, btw) because the probability that a narrative is true actually decreases with the number of facts it attempts to explain, whereas juries generally judge likelihoods to be higher the more complete the explanation offered to them.

Jn

typo corrected
Last edited by Jnyusa on Sun Jun 25, 2006 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

That is really an excellent observation, Jn.
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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Post by TheEllipticalDisillusion »

A question to lawyers. I remember during the Kobe rape case an issue about facing his accuser, and that this right can be waived by the accuser in rape cases. Am I correct in what I remember, or do I have things mixed up?
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Post by Pearly Di »

halplm wrote:Personally, i think rape is the worst crime there is. It's at least on par with murder, and quite possibly worse.
I'm having a hard time seeing how rape is WORSE than murder, Hal.

:scratch:

And rape is of course just horrible. The idea of rape is unbelievably horrifying and distressing to me, but I'd much rather be a live rape survivor than a dead rape victim.

I have never been the victim of a sexual assault, thank God, but I HAVE been the victim of crime so I know from first hand experience just how horrible it is. I can't imagine what sexual violation would feel like. Well, actually, I can, and ... if anything could break my spirit, that probably would. It's on the same level as torture, in terms of physiological and emotional after-effects.

But I'd still far rather be alive - with the chance to recover from those traumatic inner wounds - than dead.



Sorry, emotional interjection.

Carry on. :)
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axordil
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Post by axordil »

It's a problem in many spheres, jny. We relentlessly attempt to create narratives from the world, even though the world is not inherently narrative in nature. History and politics and religion are all skewed by this as much as jurisprudence. Marketing and advertising are dependent on it.

Well, literature too, but I don't see that as a problem. ;)
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Post by ToshoftheWuffingas »

Though no one in my close family has been raped (that I know of dear God), two cases spring to mind. One is of a friend and work colleague whose ex husband broke into her house and raped her at knifepoint. She went to the local police but didn't make an official statement accusing him. I don't know all the details but she basically didn't want the court case. Later she went on to do a lot of work for the local Rape Centre. So the rapist got away with it.
The other case was a woman who went to the police about being dragged into bushes in part of my home town and being raped by a skinhead with a tattoo of a dragon on his neck. It was headline news in the local paper. Shortly after a skinhead with a dragon tattoo on his neck went voluntarily to the police station. It appeared that the woman had made the whole story up. If the police hadn't determined the truth early on what chance would the man have had in court after a description like that?
We all want rapists caught and punished but a false accusation for a man is also a nightmare and very difficult to defend oneself against. Everyone will think there is no smoke without fire.
But to the question that was posed; if I was in the position of being falsely accused of rape, either not having had sex at all with the woman or having consensual sex that was later misrepresented as rape I fail to see how bringing up her past sexual activity in court helps me one way or another. I may wish my lawyer to investigate her attitudes towards sexual activity because that might reveal the reason for the false accusation but what she has actually done doesn't seem relevant unless it involved other accusations. Frankly, without witnesses, I don't really know how I could defend myself given such an accusation.
I agree that a casually promiscuous or stupidly negligent woman or a professional sex worker deserves as much protection from sexual assault as the most 'respectable' women.
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Post by yovargas »

Frankly, without witnesses, I don't really know how I could defend myself given such an accusation.
Should you have to? Innocent until proven guilty. If you didn't do it, how can it be proven. (My logic; dunno about the law.)
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