New Irish Sex Legislation

[Voronwë the Faithful]

In most cases when a 19 year old "does the dirty deed" with a 15 year old they are taking advantage of someone of significantly less experience and (presumed) maturity. Regardless of the gender of either party.

[TheEllipticalDisillusion]

Is this an absolute, V?

[axordil]

He did say *most* and not *all*.

I have seen, since I was in college and paying attention to such things, virtually every permutation discussed: older kids/younger kids (all under the age of majority, one under the age of conset) where all involved are clueless are by far the most common, and prosecuting anyone involved is simply stupid and puritanical. Setting aside those, the problematic and damaging cases are going to be predatory adults of either gender, and manipulative (and precocious) minors.

One standard just ain't going to work for all cases. The trick is coming up with a relatively simple, but not simplistic, way of differentiating between the three above possible scenarios.

[TheEllipticalDisillusion]

He did say most, and then you said that the most common were those who were clueless. That's fairly contradictory to "most" who are taking advantage of another's inexperience. How can we have most taking advantage of those who are inexperienced (agewise), but most common involing parties who were clueless? Too many mosts for my liking.

[axordil]

Ah, but a 19 year old is above the age of majority, and legally liable for ANY and ALL of their actions. Thus not a child, even if still clueless.

I was referring to the 17 year olds with 16, 15 or 14 year old girl/boyfriends, which I do believe to be the vast majority of cases.

And since when do Voronwë and I have to speak with one voice anyway? I happen to agree with him here (mostly ) but that's not always the case. Really.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Yes, as much as I respect and like Ax, he and I do have separate minds, and different ways of looking at things (to a greater or lesser extent depending on the issue). Besides, you asked the question "Is this an absolute?" before Ax said anything. And, as Ax pointed out, I said "in most cases" not "in all cases". I do try (with varying degrees of success, of course) to be precise in my use of language. I am a firm believer in the power of both the spoken and the written word, and try to respect that power as best I can.

I'm not sure what the rest of Ax's post has to do with whether my statement was meant to be an absolute.

[MithLuin]

Really, people should just get married, so the consent is public and obvious. Then you don't have this issue of the girl claiming she didn't consent and the guy claiming he didn't know she was 14.

And yes, I know that will never go down as a law! (But it does make things simpler, doesn't it?) Needless to say, I am not a huge fan of the concept behind "consenting adults," but I understand why you don't make laws more restrictive than that. The law should leave plenty of room for human freedom and decision-making, while at the same time protecting the vulnerable (the young, the mentally-handicapped, victims of abuse, etc). 19 year olds shouldn't be having sex with 15 year olds, in most cases, but that doesn't mean they should be labeled as "sex-offenders" either. The perversion that leads someone to commit rape is something different, I would think, though I haven't delved much into that, to be honest.

You certainly can pass laws to restrict human passions...but some are harder to enforce than others. Prostitution should be illegal...but that doesn't mean it can be eliminated.

The Watcher - You need not assume that your son and his girlfriend have had sex simply because they have been dating for 9 months. While time certainly is a factor, it doesn't make things inevitable. Some couples would be in bed together in one month . And others date for 4 years without crossing that line. I usually go by "if they walk around talking about it, you can assume they've done it" - not necessarily any more fool-proof, but a better rule of thumb . And that sounded much more condescending than I meant ... sorry. I know you know better, I just wanted to mention that.

[The Watcher]

Really, people should just get married, so the consent is public and obvious. Then you don't have this issue of the girl claiming she didn't consent and the guy claiming he didn't know she was 14.

And yes, I know that will never go down as a law! (But it does make things simpler, doesn't it?) Needless to say, I am not a huge fan of the concept behind "consenting adults," but I understand why you don't make laws more restrictive than that. The law should leave plenty of room for human freedom and decision-making, while at the same time protecting the vulnerable (the young, the mentally-handicapped, victims of abuse, etc). 19 year olds shouldn't be having sex with 15 year olds, in most cases, but that doesn't mean they should be labeled as "sex-offenders" either. The perversion that leads someone to commit rape is something different, I would think, though I haven't delved much into that, to be honest.

You certainly can pass laws to restrict human passions...but some are harder to enforce than others. Prostitution should be illegal...but that doesn't mean it can be eliminated.

The Watcher - You need not assume that your son and his girlfriend have had sex simply because they have been dating for 9 months. While time certainly is a factor, it doesn't make things inevitable. Some couples would be in bed together in one month . And others date for 4 years without crossing that line. I usually go by "if they walk around talking about it, you can assume they've done it" - not necessarily any more fool-proof, but a better rule of thumb . And that sounded much more condescending than I meant ... sorry. I know you know better, I just wanted to mention that.

Mithluin -

Oh, I know my son has not gone past the shnuggling/petting part of things yet - his girlfriend is part Filipino, RC, and I have a feeling her parents would kill him or be forcing a shotgun wedding if such a thing occurred.

Actually, his gf is very sweet, and in some ways emotionally younger than my son, who looks and acts far older than his actual age would indicate. She lives at her family home and attends a local tech college. Her interests are surprisingly compatable with those of my son, who is heavily into geekiness (wonder where he got that from.....)

And, I agree about the stigmatization of those "over the age of consent" or the "legal age" consorting with younger girlfriends or boyfriends, it is far more common than one would think, and usually such issues are best left alone without government interference IMO. It would be entirely different if it was proven to be a case of true rape, date rape, enticement, sexual predation, or other manipulative or perceived possibly abusive situations (such as a 24 year old teacher or youth group leader having a relationship with a minor, for example - although even then I wonder if it always should be viewed as a criminal act rather than as a dire indication to remove the person from any position of authority over minors.... - just musing out loud here. 24 with 17 is very different than 30 with 13 for example. And, as long as we have a double standard in most societies that youth and beauty are more desirable attributes in females (and I guess in some cases with younger males as well to be fair) than more skin deep and worthy attributes, I do not see things changing soon. Fine, it won't be statutory rape, it will be mail order brides or trophy wives for men fixated on such things, boy toys for the women, and as you point out, prostitutes and call girls. I would rather have healthy and loving relationships between the 15 and 19 year olds, the 17 and 24 year olds, etc., if you catch my drift. And, they still do happen. I know of several instances where such age differences started out to begin with and then later ended up in marriages that were and still are quite successful. Not all, but a good number.

In a somewhat related topic, I just read an article that has been out for a short while now that states that a good number of teens and young adults who took chastity vows later 'fessed up' to having violated them to a large degree when allowed to be followed up on anonymously.

As I tried to state, maybe without success, statutory rape laws may do more harm than good in the long run - I really think it needs to be looked at in a situation by situation context, and will be extremely hard to put into a cut and dried box. Until young women and young men stop getting raging hormones in adolescence, there is not much that the human population can do to "mandate" sexual conduct or contact.