2020 Election: Predictions, Results and Reactions

The place for measured discourse about politics and current events, including developments in science and medicine.
Post Reply
User avatar
RoseMorninStar
Posts: 12895
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:07 am
Location: North Shire

Re: 2020 Election: Predictions, Results and Reactions

Post by RoseMorninStar »

N.E. Brigand wrote:So last Wednesday's attack on the Capitol may not have been only an incident of *domestic* terrorism:

Large bitcoin payments to right-wing activists a month before Capitol riot linked to foreign account.

It was about $500,000 distributed among 22 recipients from an unidentified French account.

I am reminded of Sarah Kendzior's characterization of the Trump administration: "This is a transnational crime syndicate masquerading as a government."
There is very little doubt in my mind that the QAnon conspiracy plot/phenomena wasn't foreign or foreign funded propaganda.

Domestic terrorism, and those sympathetic to domestic terrorism within our system, need to be weeded out. Trump is really good at a couple of things; he's an expert and ruthless (lying) marketer and he's very good at demanding -and obtaining- unquestioned loyalty to him personally. How he gets so many to override their constitutional oath.. I dunno. It must come down to ambition, greed, or fear.
My heart is forever in the Shire.
N.E. Brigand
Posts: 6958
Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 1:41 am
Location: Cleveland, OH, USA

Re: 2020 Election: Predictions, Results and Reactions

Post by N.E. Brigand »

RoseMorninStar wrote:
N.E. Brigand wrote:So last Wednesday's attack on the Capitol may not have been only an incident of *domestic* terrorism:

Large bitcoin payments to right-wing activists a month before Capitol riot linked to foreign account.

It was about $500,000 distributed among 22 recipients from an unidentified French account.

I am reminded of Sarah Kendzior's characterization of the Trump administration: "This is a transnational crime syndicate masquerading as a government."
There is very little doubt in my mind that the QAnon conspiracy plot/phenomena wasn't foreign or foreign funded propaganda.

Domestic terrorism, and those sympathetic to domestic terrorism within our system, need to be weeded out. Trump is really good at a couple of things; he's an expert and ruthless (lying) marketer and he's very good at demanding -and obtaining- unquestioned loyalty to him personally. How he gets so many to override their constitutional oath.. I dunno. It must come down to ambition, greed, or fear.
In a Literature & Film class I audited some 27 years ago (taught by this guy), the last works we studied were Thomas Harris's novel The Silence of the Lambs and its famous film adaptation written by Ted Tally, directed by Jonathan Demme, and starring Jodie Foster and Anthony Hopkins. We read the book in advance and then watched the movie together in class, with the screening followed by a pop quiz. One of the questions we were asked was: What is the last line of the movie? Most of the class had probably seen the film before, and they responded as I think the professor expected them to, answering that the last line was Hopkins's character saying, "I'm having an old friend for dinner." Suspecting a trick question, I answered that the last line was actually Foster's character responding "Dr. Lecter?" several times to the dead phone line. Both answers were wrong, said our professor. The last line, he said, is actually Anthony Heald's character asking his host, at the foreign airport at which he has just arrived, if "the security system is all set up?" Our professor wanted us to be more attentive viewers and not dismiss anything as throwaway dialogue. (To that end, I'll note that the other character actually responds in the affirmative and that Heald's character responds "Thank you," which is the film's actual last line in English; after that there is also some audible singing in another language). And the reason, Prof. Macklin said, was that if a film is made with any serious intention, then its last line would surely be important.

And what import did he place on a request for security? That Americans think the danger is foreign, something outside the U.S., when actually we bring the danger with us to the world. (As a later television series put it, we are the ones who knock.) If so, it seems a bit tacked on to a movie where that has not been the theme, but there certainly is a lot of American iconography in the film. Flags turn up in the most unexpected places. The victim Foster's character is trying to rescue was singing "American Girl" just before she was kidnapped. (We also watched Demme's Melvin and Howard in that class. Lots of red, white, and blue in that one too.)

In other words, I take your point! That's why I evoked Sarah Kendzior's use of "transnational," but maybe "international" would have been better. I certainly didn't mean to imply "foreign" in opposition to "domestic." It's a loose worldwide association of nasty people reinforcing one another's worst impulses. Russian trolls helped spread the American-born Pizzagate conspiracy theories. QAnon, the step-child of Pizzagate, seems likely to have originated with an American ex-pat in the Philippines and now is lodged pretty firmly in a number of European countries. Trump himself is an entanglement of foreign and domestic schemes. See his mysteriously funded golf courses in Scotland, for instance.
User avatar
elengil
Cat-egorical Herbitual Creativi-Tea
Posts: 6248
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:45 pm
Location: Between the Mountains and the Sea

Re: 2020 Election: Predictions, Results and Reactions

Post by elengil »

The dumbest thing I've ever bought
was a 2020 planner.

"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
User avatar
Frelga
Meanwhile...
Posts: 22482
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:31 pm
Location: Home, where else

Re: 2020 Election: Predictions, Results and Reactions

Post by Frelga »

elengil wrote:
N.E. Brigand wrote: I'd say that planning and training and the rest makes it even more clear that these aren't just protesters who got a little too enthusiastic.
Yep. Even while I will still agree that many or perhaps even most of the crowd as a whole were just there to be there, there was absolutely a contingent that had very specific, chilling goals, and they knew what they were doing and clearly had training and maybe even help from inside.
The ones who looked harmless and goofy were there that exact reason - to look harmless and goofy. Just your regular fellow (white) Americans peaceably defending our fellow (white) Americans and their freedoms. .

They also created a crowd that covered the masked, armed, trained and purposeful ones.

It was why those videos were posted first. They wanted to create a narrative before the chilling videos of planned and coordinated violent attack started to come out.

There was nothing goofy and harmless about this.
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.

Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
User avatar
elengil
Cat-egorical Herbitual Creativi-Tea
Posts: 6248
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:45 pm
Location: Between the Mountains and the Sea

Re: 2020 Election: Predictions, Results and Reactions

Post by elengil »

Frelga wrote: The ones who looked harmless and goofy were there that exact reason - to look harmless and goofy. Just your regular fellow (white) Americans peaceably defending our fellow (white) Americans and their freedoms. .

They also created a crowd that covered the masked, armed, trained and purposeful ones.

It was why those videos were posted first. They wanted to create a narrative before the chilling videos of planned and coordinated violent attack started to come out.

There was nothing goofy and harmless about this.
My comment was more about that part of the crowd that did not become riotous, go inside, attack police, or attempt to otherwise break the law. I agree that those inside who were a distraction were a very effective distraction
The dumbest thing I've ever bought
was a 2020 planner.

"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
User avatar
Frelga
Meanwhile...
Posts: 22482
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:31 pm
Location: Home, where else

Re: 2020 Election: Predictions, Results and Reactions

Post by Frelga »

Oh, yes, that's fair. Those at the rally that did not join the mob were within their 1st Amendment rights.
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.

Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
N.E. Brigand
Posts: 6958
Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 1:41 am
Location: Cleveland, OH, USA

Re: 2020 Election: Predictions, Results and Reactions

Post by N.E. Brigand »

N.E. Brigand wrote:The Washington Post has published a story with new video of Ashli Babbitt being shot and killed in the Capitol. The video is longer and much easier to follow than the video previously seen. (The video doesn't autoplay, so clicking on the story doesn't force you to watch graphic footage.) There's a group of rioters in an corridor at the top of a stairwell. They are on the outside of a set of windowed doors behind which is a lobby just outside the House chamber. Through the windows, you can see members of Congress at the beginning of the video. The doors appear to blocked on the other side with some furniture. Inside the doors are a small number of police officers.

The crowd demands to be allowed through the doors. The police urge them to calm down and to leave. Members of the crowd punch the windows and elbow the officers. Someone in the the crowd chants, "Fuck the blue! Fuck the blue!" There are also chants of "Break it down! Break it down!" The person filming is apparently a liberal activist who regularly films protests of all stripes. He warns the officers that he fears for their safety because the crowd is large and he saw other people being hurt outside. One member of the crowd says to the cops, "We will make a path, dead ass." They also argue to the officers that they supported them last year when their was much anger being directed at police.

Eventually the police officers step aside. It looks like they're giving up, but the article says that they do so because other officers in riot gear have arrived. Regardless, the crowd takes this as a sign for them to begin smashing the glass. They have most success breaking the window on the right side of the corridor. But then on the left side of the corridor, some members of the crowd notice through the partially smashed glass that there is someone, apparently a plainclothes police officer, standing on the other side of the door, on the far left, pointing a gun toward the now unobstructed opening on the far right. One of them shouts, "Gun! He has a gun!" but a few seconds later, Ms. Babbitt attempts to climb through the opening, and the officer shoots her.
The person who filmed this video, John Sullivan, has been charged for helping the attackers at various points. I was wrong to describe him as a liberal activist. Apparently his political views are best described as an anarchist, but based on what I've read about his behavior at various other protests over the past year, "agent provocateur" might be more apt. Various genuine liberal activists have repeatedly warned that he appeared to them to be an "infiltrator" trying to cause trouble. Here's an example.
N.E. Brigand
Posts: 6958
Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 1:41 am
Location: Cleveland, OH, USA

Re: 2020 Election: Predictions, Results and Reactions

Post by N.E. Brigand »

N.E. Brigand wrote:Huh. CNN's Jim Acosta reported this afternoon: "A source close to the White House who is in touch with some of the rioters at the Capitol said it's the goal of those involved to stay inside the Capitol through the night."

That sounds like some sort of coordination between the President and the terrorists that was more than him just exhorting them in a late-morning speech.

Or maybe like Acosta's source was using Acosta to deliver a message to the terrorists.

Which means Acosta may have a moral duty to burn his source.

(My first guess would be Roger Stone. He's close to the Proud Boys.)
Or maybe Steve Bannon?
User avatar
RoseMorninStar
Posts: 12895
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:07 am
Location: North Shire

Re: 2020 Election: Predictions, Results and Reactions

Post by RoseMorninStar »

I read an article tonight from WaPo about what some of the officers suffered. It's disgraceful and.. simply awful. One was dragged down steps by his helmet and suffered a minor heart attack. He heard people say, 'Kill him with his own gun.' The officer has since resigned. Had they not held the door at the West Terrace hundreds if not thousands more would have entered the building. Police were fighting for their lives. It is with a sad sense of irony I think of Hordor. :cry:

N.E., Stephen Miller?
My heart is forever in the Shire.
User avatar
elengil
Cat-egorical Herbitual Creativi-Tea
Posts: 6248
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:45 pm
Location: Between the Mountains and the Sea

Re: 2020 Election: Predictions, Results and Reactions

Post by elengil »

Once again Schrodinger's president: he wasn't culpable for the mob while lawyers for his mob are claiming he was.

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/1 ... don-459608
The dumbest thing I've ever bought
was a 2020 planner.

"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
User avatar
Sunsilver
Posts: 8857
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:41 am
Location: In my rose garden
Contact:

Re: 2020 Election: Predictions, Results and Reactions

Post by Sunsilver »

Sources are being cautious about what they say, but there is NO DOUBT a number of the rioters were given guided tours of the Capitol building the day before, allowing them to 'case' the building, and figure out the best way to get in, and where certain key offices were.

Security commented on this, as the Capitol building has been nearly empty of tourists due to the pandemic.

Those responsible could face major charges. The investigation is ongoing, and will likely involve reviewing member's e-mails to confirm they communicated with those planning the riot. And, of course, there is the footage from security cameras, showing who was involved.

And all sources are in agreement that Republican representative Lauren Boebert tweeted Nancy Pelosi's location to the rioters, thus putting her life in danger.

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/1 ... gal-459519
When the night has been too lonely, and the road has been too long,
And you think that love is only for the lucky and the strong,
Just remember in the winter far beneath the bitter snows,
Lies the seed, that with the sun's love, in the spring becomes The Rose.
N.E. Brigand
Posts: 6958
Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 1:41 am
Location: Cleveland, OH, USA

Re: 2020 Election: Predictions, Results and Reactions

Post by N.E. Brigand »

N.E. Brigand wrote:
N.E. Brigand wrote:The Washington Post has published a story with new video of Ashli Babbitt being shot and killed in the Capitol. The video is longer and much easier to follow than the video previously seen. (The video doesn't autoplay, so clicking on the story doesn't force you to watch graphic footage.) There's a group of rioters in an corridor at the top of a stairwell. They are on the outside of a set of windowed doors behind which is a lobby just outside the House chamber. Through the windows, you can see members of Congress at the beginning of the video. The doors appear to blocked on the other side with some furniture. Inside the doors are a small number of police officers.

The crowd demands to be allowed through the doors. The police urge them to calm down and to leave. Members of the crowd punch the windows and elbow the officers. Someone in the the crowd chants, "Fuck the blue! Fuck the blue!" There are also chants of "Break it down! Break it down!" The person filming is apparently a liberal activist who regularly films protests of all stripes. He warns the officers that he fears for their safety because the crowd is large and he saw other people being hurt outside. One member of the crowd says to the cops, "We will make a path, dead ass." They also argue to the officers that they supported them last year when their was much anger being directed at police.

Eventually the police officers step aside. It looks like they're giving up, but the article says that they do so because other officers in riot gear have arrived. Regardless, the crowd takes this as a sign for them to begin smashing the glass. They have most success breaking the window on the right side of the corridor. But then on the left side of the corridor, some members of the crowd notice through the partially smashed glass that there is someone, apparently a plainclothes police officer, standing on the other side of the door, on the far left, pointing a gun toward the now unobstructed opening on the far right. One of them shouts, "Gun! He has a gun!" but a few seconds later, Ms. Babbitt attempts to climb through the opening, and the officer shoots her.
The person who filmed this video, John Sullivan, has been charged for helping the attackers at various points. I was wrong to describe him as a liberal activist. Apparently his political views are best described as an anarchist, but based on what I've read about his behavior at various other protests over the past year, "agent provocateur" might be more apt. Various genuine liberal activists have repeatedly warned that he appeared to them to be an "infiltrator" trying to cause trouble. Here's an example.
Last night Rudy Giuliani shared a text from this guy's brother, a Trump activist, who tells Giuliani that he is "currently working with the FBI to expose and place total blame" on his brother and Antifa for the Capitol attack. In doing so, did Giuliani give the FBI a reason to subpoena his own phone?
User avatar
elengil
Cat-egorical Herbitual Creativi-Tea
Posts: 6248
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:45 pm
Location: Between the Mountains and the Sea

Re: 2020 Election: Predictions, Results and Reactions

Post by elengil »

N.E. Brigand wrote: Last night Rudy Giuliani shared a text from this guy's brother, a Trump activist, who tells Giuliani that he is "currently working with the FBI to expose and place total blame" on his brother and Antifa for the Capitol attack.
The lies never end :nono:
The dumbest thing I've ever bought
was a 2020 planner.

"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
User avatar
Frelga
Meanwhile...
Posts: 22482
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:31 pm
Location: Home, where else

Re: 2020 Election: Predictions, Results and Reactions

Post by Frelga »

Remember when the Proud Boy leader posted photos from the White House bragging about meeting with the president? (why does autosuggest thinks it should be Mount Doom?) And they said, oh, he was on a public tour. And people said, really? Because you have to apply 21 days in advance through you Congresscreature's office and go through a background check, and anyway those are not public areas.
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.

Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
User avatar
Dave_LF
Wrong within normal parameters
Posts: 6806
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2006 10:59 am
Location: The other side of Michigan

Re: 2020 Election: Predictions, Results and Reactions

Post by Dave_LF »

Speaking of Giuliani, have we talked here about how Trump is refusing to pay him for his legal services because he's upset about getting impeached?
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... alling-out

Good luck stopping him from talking to the feds now. And good luck getting anyone good to represent you in the many, many prosecution likely to be coming your way.
User avatar
Sunsilver
Posts: 8857
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:41 am
Location: In my rose garden
Contact:

Re: 2020 Election: Predictions, Results and Reactions

Post by Sunsilver »

Dave_LF wrote: Good luck stopping him from talking to the feds now. And good luck getting anyone good to represent you in the many, many prosecution likely to be coming your way.
Dave, never thought of that! :rofl: Yup, that could definitely be a motivation!
When the night has been too lonely, and the road has been too long,
And you think that love is only for the lucky and the strong,
Just remember in the winter far beneath the bitter snows,
Lies the seed, that with the sun's love, in the spring becomes The Rose.
User avatar
elengil
Cat-egorical Herbitual Creativi-Tea
Posts: 6248
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:45 pm
Location: Between the Mountains and the Sea

Re: 2020 Election: Predictions, Results and Reactions

Post by elengil »

News interspersed with interviews with some of the law enforcement on site
The dumbest thing I've ever bought
was a 2020 planner.

"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
N.E. Brigand
Posts: 6958
Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 1:41 am
Location: Cleveland, OH, USA

Re: 2020 Election: Predictions, Results and Reactions

Post by N.E. Brigand »

Dave_LF wrote:Speaking of Giuliani, have we talked here about how Trump is refusing to pay him for his legal services because he's upset about getting impeached?
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... alling-out

Good luck stopping him from talking to the feds now. And good luck getting anyone good to represent you in the many, many prosecution likely to be coming your way.
Presumably Trump will give Giuliani a federal pardon instead of paying his legal fees.
User avatar
Voronwë the Faithful
At the intersection of here and now
Posts: 46135
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:41 am
Contact:

Re: 2020 Election: Predictions, Results and Reactions

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

And Giuliani is reportedly still planning to represent Trump at the impeachment trial despite not being paid.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
User avatar
Dave_LF
Wrong within normal parameters
Posts: 6806
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2006 10:59 am
Location: The other side of Michigan

Re: 2020 Election: Predictions, Results and Reactions

Post by Dave_LF »

I guess that's one way to sell pardons without getting caught :neutral:
Post Reply