2020 Presidential Election

[Cerin]

It isn't the idea of education people are viewing negatively. What they're viewing negatively is what they perceive/believe is going on at universities and how that is affecting society.

Even so, there is an undercurrent of dissatisfaction – even suspicion – among the public about the role colleges play in society, the way admissions decisions are made and the extent to which free speech is constrained on college campuses.

If a right wing person believes students are being indoctrinated with liberal ideas and political correctness, if they believe admissions are based too much on diversity goals or on wealth rather than merit, if they believe a conservative viewpoint is being silenced, then they're obviously going to have a negative view of universities. So I don't find it surprising that views on higher education would reflect the general hyper-partisan divide in the country.

[yovargas]

I mean, sure, I get that. But do these people not understand that universities also teach a million other things that have absolutely nothing to do with any of that? Stuff like finance and physics and biology and algebra and computer programming and law and engineering and medicine and a ton of other things?? Are there people so intensely opposed to anything "PC" that they think being exposed to those ideas makes it an overall negative thing even if you leave with a highly valuable and useful nursing or engineering degree??

[Cerin]

I didn't interpret the article as saying that people with a negative view of universities believe young people shouldn't go to college, just that they aren't entirely happy with what they believe young people encounter while there. I think believing that the concerns outweigh the benefits of going to college would be a radical point of view.

[yovargas]

I think believing that the concerns outweigh the benefits of going to college would be a radical point of view.

That seems to be exactly what the survey shows as the view of the majority of Republicans now. I'm not sure how else to interpret saying that universities have a negative effect on the country.

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[Voronwë the Faithful]

Yes, that is what the poll unambiguously says.

[Cerin]

yov, I can't interpret someone saying they think universities are having a negative effect on the country as meaning they think people shouldn't go to college at all. That's too much of a leap for me. If someone said they thought pesticides were having a negative effect on the country, I wouldn't assume that meant they think people shouldn't eat.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

That analogy makes no sense.

[Cerin]

I'm utterly shocked at the interpretation of 'universities have a negative effect on the country' as meaning 'people shouldn't attend university.' The enormity of what that represents in willingness to assume and impute is literally horrifying me at the moment.

[yovargas]

I have no idea how one could be expected to think that someone who thinks universities are an overall negative would also support going to universities. That literally makes no sense to me. "Universities are bad but attending them is good." Literally no sense.

[Cerin]

People aren't saying universities are bad. People are saying some of the things that are happening at universities are having a negative effect on society. But as you point out, if people want a profession, they have to attend universities.

Now it could be that some of those interviewed for the survey feel so strongly about the negative effects of universities on society that they believe people should avoid going to universities, should forego their dreams of entering a profession because the dangers they face at universities are too great. However, there would be no way to know if any, or how many of the respondents felt that way without going back and interviewing those people again. And since I know I am not going to do that, I don't really care what the statistical results of the survey represent in terms of practical effect. I can't know, so wondering about it doesn't interest me. I know what the survey stated -- that such and such a percentage of Republicans think universities have a negative effect on society, for the reasons stated.

Another thing I know is that I have no hope of meaningful communication with someone who reads a survey stating that 87% of Republicans think universities have a negative effect on society, and walks away thinking he read a survey stating that 87% of Republicans believe people shouldn't attend universities. And that's discouraging.

[yovargas]

I find your response utterly bizarre. If someone views universities as overall negative for society, that means they think universities are harmful. And you don't encourage people to participate in things you view as harmful. If you view something as harmful, you avoid it. This is so plainly logical I'm baffled we're having this conversation.

[yovargas]

You seem to be thinking that there are people who would say "I dislike the liberal politics taught in universities, but it's still good to go because you learn valuable things that can lead to good careers" but would answer that universities are negative for society. I suppose maybe some people think like that but it's not a logical response. I suppose many people aren't very logical but if you think that it's worth going to university, that logically means you think universities are on the whole more positive than negative.

[Túrin Turambar]

It is possible to interpret the results as "universities as they stand now are bad, but if they were different they could be a good thing". That said, I suspect many traditional conservatives would take the view that working or joining the military would offer a better and more practical education than College outside the professions where higher education is necessary (like medicine and law).

[narya]

I wonder if Republicans are still sending their kids to college at the same rates. Would they fear that their kids might acquire the wrong views?

[Túrin Turambar]

The 60% or so of R and I voters who say that College has a negative effect would likely overlap heavily with the non-College-educated white voters who supported Trump in 2016, whose children are likely to not go to College. Of course, that still leaves 40%. And many of the 60% would have children who choose to go to College anyway. And finally, some parents might disapprove of College but still believe having a degree would confer an advantage.

[RoseMorninStar]

The study says people believe that colleges have gone overboard in protecting students from views they deem offensive. On the other hand, most Republicans also think professors should stop bringing their social and political views into the classroom. Is that not a contradiction? Students should not be sheltered from differing opinions while at the same time, wanting to shelter students from differing opinions?

Not all campuses are hot beds of liberal ideology (as FOX news would have us think). Not all professors are liberal crusaders. Not all classes/majors deal with politics. From personal experience, I find there to be a religious component to the topic of education and people not wishing their children to be 'exposed to ideas' and that seems to have broadened in recent years. Science- the rejection of science- is a biggie. It has become politicized. People don't want their children 'educated' because they feel it challenges their religious beliefs.

Education should teach us to be critical thinkers. To be curious, to question, to seek answers. There is a reason Trump 'loves the poorly educated'.

[Sunsilver]

Education should teach us to be critical thinkers. To be curious, to question, to seek answers. There is a reason Trump 'loves the poorly educated'.

This is SO depressing...

And it's not just secondary education that suffers when people don't trust the schools and universities! The lady who was my so-called partner when I bought the kennel homeschooled her son, as she didn't agree with what was being taught in school. She did such a lousy job of it that he couldn't even read a note I'd written, giving him a list of jobs I needed help with. He'd never been taught cursive.

After she left the kennel, I heard he got very angry with his mom when he turned 18 and realized just how lacking his 'education' had been!

People who do homeschooling PROPERLY have to follow the Ontario curriculum, and the Board of Education actually checks to make sure the kids are being taught what they need to know. She somehow managed to 'fly underneath the radar' and keep the government unaware of what she was doing. Just saying this to show I'm not necessarily AGAINST homeschooling. My brother and sister-in-law homeschooled two of their kids for a couple of years, and they both did well when they went back into the school system later on.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

A new Monmouth University poll has Sanders and Warren tied at the top at 20%, with Biden within the margin of error at 19%. The last Monmouth poll Biden was up almost 20 percentage points, so this, to use his terminology, a BFD.

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[Túrin Turambar]

I'm wary of making a BFD off a single poll, but if the trend continues Biden is in trouble.

And I was wrong about Warren - she's ground her back up into contention. But we have still have the third debate, and Iowa is a long way away in political time.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Yes, it is only one poll, and other polls have yet to show the same trend (the most recent CNN poll still had Biden with a significant lead, for instance). But he just hasn't shown himself to be a very good candidate (anymore than he did in his numerous previous attempts to run for president).