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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:18 am 
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I would certainly grant a potential father will the high likelihood of committing to raising his offspring the right to say when not to have children, at least up until conception. Biologically, men don't always have a choice on that side of the matter. But deciding when to have a child should be up to the woman who is going to bear it. However, there is no practical way to implement this system, so I am not particularly invested in discussing it.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:57 am 
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Frelga wrote:
I would certainly grant a potential father will the high likelihood of committing to raising his offspring the right to say when not to have children, at least up until conception. Biologically, men don't always have a choice on that side of the matter. But deciding when to have a child should be up to the woman who is going to bear it. However, there is no practical way to implement this system, so I am not particularly invested in discussing it.


And is it still up to the woman at 39 weeks?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:09 am 
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I was more than a little pissed to make it to 39 weeks with the last one. I got an elective induction on the due date. Being that pregnant really really sucks.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:11 am 
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What specific scenario are you concerned about, Al?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:31 am 
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Frelga wrote:
What specific scenario are you concerned about, Al?


The scenario where you feel that the life or death of a fully viable child is the decision of the woman carrying that child and nobody else.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:47 am 
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Alatar wrote:
Frelga wrote:
What specific scenario are you concerned about, Al?


The scenario where you feel that the life or death of a fully viable child is the decision of the woman carrying that child and nobody else.


OK, so just to be clear, you are talking about a physically and mentally healthy woman who has carried a viable fetus through 39 weeks of pregnancy - you know, puking her guts out for three months, back pain, hot flashes, heartburn, hips on fire from sleeping on her side for six months, getting the crap kicked out of her from the inside. And at the point when the baby is finally at term, she nopes out and decides to terminate pregnancy by means other than inducing labor and delivering the baby? That scenario? You feel a society needs to exert control over the women's bodies to prevent that from happening?

That is not a compelling argument.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:02 am 
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That didn't really answer Al's question. He didn't say it was common, or likely, just asked what your stance on it was.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:18 am 
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My stance on what, exactly? The imaginary extreme case? In the context of this discussion, it's merely absurd. When used in real world to defend laws that lead to death and severe injuries of real women, it's malicious and immoral.

Well, you asked.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:23 am 
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Laws against late-term abortion are neither imaginary nor extreme.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:33 am 
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They are real, extreme, harmful, and passed based on dishonest arguments.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:33 am 
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They are real, extreme, harmful, and passed based on dishonest arguments.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:21 pm 
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I take no issue with you having that stance, but I do take issue with you flatly stating something so controversial as a obvious fact that should just be accepted without argument.

I googled and found that last gallop polls showed over 70% opposition to allowing late term abortions, so classifying the view as extreme is objectively false.
http://news.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspx

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:45 pm 
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River wrote:
I was more than a little pissed to make it to 39 weeks with the last one. I got an elective induction on the due date. Being that pregnant really really sucks.


Mine were 42 weeks each. :help:


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:29 pm 
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I think a possible point of misunderstanding here is that in the United States, laws against "late-term" abortion that have been introduced or even passed have defined "late term" as anything after 8 weeks, or anything after the ability to detect a fetal heartbeat (which happens at 6 weeks or so). In other words, before many women know they're pregnant—most of us don't track our periods closely if we're using birth control and expecting it to work.

Others define it as after 16 or 20 weeks—neither is the point of viability, and many fatal fetal defects such as anencephaly or agenesis of the lungs are not discovered until then or later. This ban means that the woman must continue a doomed pregnancy until the fetus dies or until she gives birth. As an added bonus, pregnancies with severely malformed fetuses often carry much higher risks of preeclampsia, and delivering a dead fetus increases the risk of fatal embolism to the mother.

States may restrict abortions after the point of viability however they wish.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:52 pm 
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Primula Baggins wrote:
States may restrict abortions after the point of viability however they wish.


That's not entirely true. Restrictions on even post-viability abortions must include exceptions in the case of threats to the women's life, physical and (more controversially) mental health. Still, four states have bans that only allow late-term abortions to be performed to save the life of the woman.
https://www.guttmacher.org/state-policy ... -abortions

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:16 pm 
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The most common case would be danger to the mother's health or life in the form of preeclampsia or other emergent complications. And if the fetus is viable, what's going to be done is not an abortion but an early delivery. True, this is a risk to the fetus, but it's usual to prioritize the mother. And in any case, if the mother dies, so does the fetus. If the mother is desperately ill, the fetus frequently dies then, too.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:37 pm 
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Maria wrote:
River wrote:
I was more than a little pissed to make it to 39 weeks with the last one. I got an elective induction on the due date. Being that pregnant really really sucks.


Mine were 42 weeks each. :help:

I know lots of people just keep going until nature takes its course. I, OTOH, wussed out. No regrets. I like babies much better on this side of my skin.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:44 pm 
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My middle child went to 42 weeks, but I didn’t want an induction and the OB supervising the midwives didn’t insist. But he was a placid, polite baby, active but not pushy, and I wasn’t that uncomfortable.

The third was a few days after her due date. The first had two due dates two days apart and considerately managed to be born at a minute to noon on the intervening day. It was the last hint of tidiness he ever showed....

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:12 pm 
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Frelga wrote:
Alatar wrote:
Frelga wrote:
What specific scenario are you concerned about, Al?


The scenario where you feel that the life or death of a fully viable child is the decision of the woman carrying that child and nobody else.


OK, so just to be clear, you are talking about a physically and mentally healthy woman who has carried a viable fetus through 39 weeks of pregnancy - you know, puking her guts out for three months, back pain, hot flashes, heartburn, hips on fire from sleeping on her side for six months, getting the crap kicked out of her from the inside. And at the point when the baby is finally at term, she nopes out and decides to terminate pregnancy by means other than inducing labor and delivering the baby? That scenario? You feel a society needs to exert control over the women's bodies to prevent that from happening?

That is not a compelling argument.


Ok, so. 38 weeks. 30. You draw the line for me. You tell me when its your decision and yours alone, and when the child within you gains right to life.

No equivocating. Let's be perfectly clear here.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:34 pm 
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36 weeks is where the doctors draw the line in a case of fetal abnormality, rape, or incest. 24 weeks if the mom's in peril (past that they just deliver early; Inanna lived the details six years ago and it's all in the pregnancy thread in Bag End). Not sure if this is laws or medical ethics though.

Prim, my second wasn't being polite about her, IMO, extended stay. I was enjoying another trimester of nausea thanks to her kicking. The exercise paid off for her, though. She had head control by the time she was seven weeks old!

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