War between Hamas and Israel

The place for measured discourse about politics and current events, including developments in science and medicine.
Post Reply
User avatar
Voronwë the Faithful
At the intersection of here and now
Posts: 45995
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:41 am
Contact:

War between Hamas and Israel

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

I split this off from the World News thread - VtF

"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
User avatar
Sunsilver
Posts: 8830
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:41 am
Location: In my rose garden
Contact:

Re: World News Thread

Post by Sunsilver »

Yes, nice to see that! Is there anything in particular that's triggered the Hamas attack against Israel?
Or did they just choose this time because it's the high holidays?
When the night has been too lonely, and the road has been too long,
And you think that love is only for the lucky and the strong,
Just remember in the winter far beneath the bitter snows,
Lies the seed, that with the sun's love, in the spring becomes The Rose.
User avatar
Frelga
Meanwhile...
Posts: 22447
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:31 pm
Location: Home, where else

Re: World News Thread

Post by Frelga »

It's the 50th anniversary of the Yom Kippur war. That the Israeli forces were not on high alert is criminal negligence. It's been said that Netanyahu was more interested in political infighting than in listening to the intelligence.
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.

Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
User avatar
Voronwë the Faithful
At the intersection of here and now
Posts: 45995
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:41 am
Contact:

Re: World News Thread

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

The less charitable inference is that Netanyahu intentionally ignored the intelligence. Obviously, I don't know whether that is true, but I don't rule it out.

ETA: What I do know is true is that the $6 billion in oil revenues that the Biden administration agreed to release to Iran as part of the recent prisoner release agreement had nothing whatsoever to do with this attack. Not only can that money only be used for humanitarian purposes, none of it has even been touched yet. Those who are claiming otherwise are purposefully lying for political purposes.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
User avatar
River
bioalchemist
Posts: 13427
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 1:08 am
Location: the dry land

Re: World News Thread

Post by River »

This won't end well for the people of Gaza.
When you can do nothing what can you do?
User avatar
Frelga
Meanwhile...
Posts: 22447
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:31 pm
Location: Home, where else

Re: World News Thread

Post by Frelga »

Surely the countries that so helpfully supplied Palestinians with weapons will now rush in to help the civilians caught in the inevitable retaliation.

At the least, Egypt will open a corridor for the refugees, right?

Yeah, didn't think so.

In his address, Netanyahu told the people of Gaza to move away from the positions where Hamas operates. This was reported as him telling them to leave Gaza altogether, which is inaccurate.

V, there's a lot of speculation and outright lies circulating right now. Personally, I don't see how Netanyahu will get anything but blame out of it. Fwiw, my SIL, who was if not his supporter then at least not opposed to him, puts the blame squarely on him and his political games.

Similarly, I've seen various claims about the Iranian money, none of which I feel qualified to evaluate.
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.

Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
User avatar
Voronwë the Faithful
At the intersection of here and now
Posts: 45995
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:41 am
Contact:

Re: World News Thread

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Frelga wrote: Sun Oct 08, 2023 7:09 amV, there's a lot of speculation and outright lies circulating right now. Personally, I don't see how Netanyahu will get anything but blame out of it. Fwiw, my SIL, who was if not his supporter then at least not opposed to him, puts the blame squarely on him and his political games.
I don't disagree with this. The one other thing that I can say for sure, is that the Palestinians are going to suffer greatly as a result of Hamas's actions. Clearly, Hamas does not care about the people that it claims to represent.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
User avatar
Frelga
Meanwhile...
Posts: 22447
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:31 pm
Location: Home, where else

Re: World News Thread

Post by Frelga »

No, no it doesn't. Hamas uses live civilians as human shields and dead ones as fundraising images, regardless of their being Israeli or Arab.

It's Israel that's expected to care about Palestinian civilians. And it should! I hope it does, even after this.
BREAKING:

Up to 250 people may have been killed at the music festival near the Gaza border fence.

According to reports, many of the victims are Europeans and Americans.
This was an intentional peace festival held at the border to support Palestine. One of the attendies, 22 year old Shani Louk from Germany, was identified as the woman whose naked body was paraded by the Palestinians in the back of the pickup truck. Her credit card was reported to have been charged from inside Gaza.
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.

Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
User avatar
Sunsilver
Posts: 8830
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:41 am
Location: In my rose garden
Contact:

Re: World News Thread

Post by Sunsilver »

Frelga wrote: Sun Oct 08, 2023 5:23 pm No, no it doesn't. Hamas uses live civilians as human shields and dead ones as fundraising images, regardless of their being Israeli or Arab.

It's Israel that's expected to care about Palestinian civilians. And it should! I hope it does, even after this.
BREAKING:

Up to 250 people may have been killed at the music festival near the Gaza border fence.

According to reports, many of the victims are Europeans and Americans.
This was an intentional peace festival held at the border to support Palestine. One of the attendies, 22 year old Shani Louk from Germany, was identified as the woman whose naked body was paraded by the Palestinians in the back of the pickup truck. Her credit card was reported to have been charged from inside Gaza.
Wow, if Hamas expects any sympathy after that, they're barking up the wrong tree! :x :x :x What an awful thing to do!
When the night has been too lonely, and the road has been too long,
And you think that love is only for the lucky and the strong,
Just remember in the winter far beneath the bitter snows,
Lies the seed, that with the sun's love, in the spring becomes The Rose.
N.E. Brigand
Posts: 6730
Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 1:41 am
Location: Cleveland, OH, USA

Re: World News Thread

Post by N.E. Brigand »

Voronwë the Faithful wrote: Sun Oct 08, 2023 12:39 am The less charitable inference is that Netanyahu intentionally ignored the intelligence. Obviously, I don't know whether that is true, but I don't rule it out.
Speaking of inferences we can't rule out:



And who knows how much Israeli intelligence may have been blown by the document-retention practices of the former U.S. president.
N.E. Brigand
Posts: 6730
Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 1:41 am
Location: Cleveland, OH, USA

Re: World News Thread

Post by N.E. Brigand »

The Times of Israel argues that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's de facto support for Hamas rather than the Palestinian Authority in Gaza was one key factor that led to yesterday's horrors.

----------------
I've seen a couple reports that among those abducted by Hamas is a Canadian-Israeli peace activist named Vivan Silver. Talk about hurting your cause. What is Hamas thinking? (More thoughts on that below.)

----------------
Andrew Tate, the American expatriate in Romania and alleged sexual kidnapper who is a hero to some on the U.S. right, yesterday announced his support for Hamas over Israel because Israel mandated Covid-19 vaccinations.

----------------
U.S. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin has announced that the U.S. is sending an emergency military aid package to Israel. The current disarray in the U.S. House may delay further support. It also doesn't help that the Senate has yet to confirm President Biden's nominee to be U.S. ambassador to Israel. Why? Because Rand Paul believes the U.S. State Dept. is covering up information on the origins of Covid-19. So basically we have an Andrew Tate in the Senate.

----------------
Ukraine's president Volodymyr Zelenskyy yesterday announced his nation's full support for Israel against this attack.

----------------
This morning I saw an Israeli colonel interviewed on U.S. television say that proportionate to the two nations' populations, yesterday's attack was equivalent to the Pearl Harbor and 9/11 attacks combined. Obviously there are lessons to be learned from both. I would say that Osama bin Laden killed far more Americans than those who died on 9/11 by goading the U.S. into launching two 20-year wars. Hamas may have similar hopes about Israel's response.

----------------
Josh Marshall recommends this curated list of social media accounts for credible commentary on these events.
N.E. Brigand
Posts: 6730
Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 1:41 am
Location: Cleveland, OH, USA

Re: World News Thread

Post by N.E. Brigand »

Voronwë the Faithful wrote: Sun Oct 08, 2023 12:39 am ETA: What I do know is true is that the $6 billion in oil revenues that the Biden administration agreed to release to Iran as part of the recent prisoner release agreement had nothing whatsoever to do with this attack. Not only can that money only be used for humanitarian purposes, none of it has even been touched yet. Those who are claiming otherwise are purposefully lying for political purposes.
Indeed, as the U.S. Bureau Chief of the Times of Israel observes:

User avatar
Frelga
Meanwhile...
Posts: 22447
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:31 pm
Location: Home, where else

Re: World News Thread

Post by Frelga »

Re the last quoted tweet - I don't think it's wrong, but it doesn't really negate other rumors. It's true that most Israelis blame Netanyahu for the spectacular intelligence failure, but it's also possible that he believed that a conflict with Hamas will be to his benefit and disastrously miscalculated. It may be true that the Biden money aren't currently available to Iran, but it's also possible that Iran was counting on that money to make other funds available for military purposes, or simply timed the attack to make Biden look bad.
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.

Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
User avatar
Voronwë the Faithful
At the intersection of here and now
Posts: 45995
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:41 am
Contact:

Re: World News Thread

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Frelga wrote: Mon Oct 09, 2023 3:40 am Re the last quoted tweet - I don't think it's wrong, but it doesn't really negate other rumors. It's true that most Israelis blame Netanyahu for the spectacular intelligence failure, but it's also possible that he believed that a conflict with Hamas will be to his benefit and disastrously miscalculated. It may be true that the Biden money aren't currently available to Iran, but it's also possible that Iran was counting on that money to make other funds available for military purposes, or simply timed the attack to make Biden look bad.
Is this coming from a reliable source?

"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
User avatar
RoseMorninStar
Posts: 12786
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:07 am
Location: North Shire

Re: World News Thread

Post by RoseMorninStar »

I can't speak to that particular 'X' comment, but I've been reading that 'X' is no longer as reliable as it once was and there is a lot more questionable content & misinformation posted there.
My heart is forever in the Shire.
User avatar
Voronwë the Faithful
At the intersection of here and now
Posts: 45995
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:41 am
Contact:

Re: World News Thread

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

There certainly is plenty of misinformation on Twitter (there always has been, though there is more than ever), but that was not my question. Yedioth Ahronoth is a daily paper in Israel. I was asking if it is considered a reliable source.

I now see that the statement from the Egyptian Intelligence Minister was originally quoted by the AP.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
User avatar
Frelga
Meanwhile...
Posts: 22447
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:31 pm
Location: Home, where else

Re: World News Thread

Post by Frelga »

I think it's probably true that Egyptian officials said that. Whether what they said is true is a whole different question.

Israel says it's not true, but then they would.
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.

Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
N.E. Brigand
Posts: 6730
Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 1:41 am
Location: Cleveland, OH, USA

Re: World News Thread

Post by N.E. Brigand »

"40 murdered babies"

(There is video at the link. It doesn't autoplay, and I haven't watched it.)
N.E. Brigand
Posts: 6730
Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 1:41 am
Location: Cleveland, OH, USA

Re: World News Thread

Post by N.E. Brigand »

N.E. Brigand wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2023 4:50 pm "40 murdered babies"

(There is video at the link. It doesn't autoplay, and I haven't watched it.)
I started to watch the video. Watched the first 30 seconds. Nothing graphic shown to that point, but the description is worse than what I wrote.
User avatar
Voronwë the Faithful
At the intersection of here and now
Posts: 45995
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:41 am
Contact:

Re: World News Thread

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Horror on top of horror. Where does it end?
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
Post Reply