Not enough Whisky for this Tango Foxtrot

[Cerin]

Would it better for 'Happy Holidays' to be improper?

No, it would be better if people could say what they meant without fear of stigma or reprisal.

[Frelga]

Would it better for 'Happy Holidays' to be improper?

No, it would be better if people could say what they meant without fear of stigma or reprisal.

For example, say Happy Holidays, because I am aware that not everyone belongs to the same religion, without fear that someone will complain about war on Christmas?

What is the problem, exactly? Do people have so little faith that they will forget what holiday they are supposed to celebrate unless reminded by every cashier and batista?

For the record, if I know that I am talking to someone who celebrates Christmas, I say Merry Christmas. If I don't know, I say happy holidays and assume that they have something to celebrate, wherever it's Hogswatch or the New Year.

[River]

I once irritated my boss by pointing out that not everyone who celebrates Christmas does it on Dec. 25. I wasn't trying to be a pedant. It's just a thing I'm aware of because my husband and his family are among those who celebrate Christmas on the Julian calendar (in our household, we celebrate both). My point being some people, even those who consider themselves to be open-minded, can be weirdly touchy about holidays and how they're celebrated. The catch is, if you live in a pluralistic society, you're going to have to come to terms with the fact that not everyone is celebrating the same thing at the same time. And then you're going to have to come to terms with the fact that some people are just as touchy about their holidays as you are about yours.

That said, my husband cares much more about New Year's Day than he does about Christmas. And we do a double-hit of that as well, because Serbs like to party.

[Cerin]

What is the problem, exactly?

The problem, as illustrated in the article that started this conversation, is that the guardians of enlightenment are ready to stigmatize anyone who dares to violate their strictures.

elengil brought up the subject of holiday greetings, implying that there was no cause for a sudden trend of complaint about the phrase 'Happy Holidays' as a 'war on Christmas.' That was incorrect. She left out the part about the phrase, 'Merry Christmas' being stigmatized as an unacceptable form of holiday greeting and being replaced with the politically correct 'Happy Holidays.' I was merely pointing out the omission.

I agree that everyone should be able to give the good will holiday greeting of their choice without fear of recrimination.

[yovargas]

The whole Merry Christmas thing as always seemed so silly to me because there are those like Cerin who are upset at being "stigmatized" for daring to say it. Maybe that is a real thing but to my knowledge nobody is saying that if you say Merry Christmas to strangers you are a terrible, awful, evil human being. All anyone is saying is that it's nicer to say the broader happy holidays. That's all. It's just nicer. Because it can be a little irritating to those who don't celebrate Christmas, it's more polite to avoid saying that to strangers. The guardians of enlightenment are not going to come hunt you down with torches and pitchforks if you don't choose the somewhat more polite option, despite what the right wing's culture war propaganda would have people believe.

[elengil]

There is no war on Christmas.
Anyone at all can say Merry Christmas to anyone they want to.
Not having every single corporation in the world celebrate Christmas or redecorate their cups the way you want them to is not a war on Christmas.
Saying Happy Holidays is not a war on Christmas.
Saying Seasons Greetings is not a war on Christmas.
Saying "I don't celebrate Christmas" is not a war on Christmas.
Having someone not say "Merry Christmas" back to you is not a war on Christmas.
Acknowledging that a particular series of weeks contains multiple religious and secular observances is not a war on Christmas.

If you want to read about a real war on Christmas, it was waged by Christians, because of Christmas's pagan origins and sinful associated activities.

https://www.livescience.com/32891-why-w ... rica-.html

"Shocking as it sounds, followers of Jesus Christ in both America and England helped pass laws making it illegal to observe Christmas, believing it was an insult to God to honor a day associated with ancient paganism," according to "Shocked by the Bible" (Thomas Nelson Inc, 2008). "Most Americans today are unaware that Christmas was banned in Boston from 1659 to 1681."

All Christmas activities, including dancing, seasonal plays, games, singing carols, cheerful celebration and especially drinking were banned by the Puritan-dominated Parliament of England in 1644, with the Puritans of New England following suit. Christmas was outlawed in Boston, and the Plymouth colony made celebrating Christmas a criminal offense, according to "Once Upon a Gospel" (Twenty-Third Publications, 2008).

Christmas trees and decorations were considered to be unholy pagan rituals, and the Puritans also banned traditional Christmas foods such as mince pies and pudding. Puritan laws required that stores and businesses remain open all day on Christmas, and town criers walked through the streets on Christmas Eve calling out "No Christmas, no Christmas!"

In England, the ban on the holiday was lifted in 1660, when Charles II took over the throne. However, the Puritan presence remained in New England and Christmas did not become a legal holiday there until 1856. Even then, some schools continued to hold classes on December 25 until 1870.

[River]

I descend from the people who cancelled Christmas. Though maybe this is part of why Americans seem to get fewer days off around the holidays than our European counterparts? I dunno. Seems like the Germans my team reports into are out of the office the whole twelve days.

Christmas traditions themselves are kind of peculiar. Many come from pre-Christian solstice celebrations that got a Christianized gloss after populations switched religions but kept the parties. Others were effectively made up to sell stuff (the modern incarnation of Santa Claus, for example). The more you look at what's considered traditional and why the less constrained the holiday gets.

Anyway, like I said before, you've got a choice. You can live in a pluralistic society and figure out how to use good manners even when it drives you bananas. Or you can live in a pluralistic society, not bother with good manners, and accept the consequences. Or you can find a nice insular comfort zone where everyone's doing the exact same thing at the exact same time. Or you can live in the pluralistic society, not bother with good manners, not accept the consequences of not bothering with good manners, and get into a twist over whatever "outrage" mass media is selling today.

[Frelga]

To be fair to mass media, it's really just the conservative pundits who are pandering to the small group for whom religious freedom means the freedom for people of their specific religion to impose their beliefs on everyone else. Of that group, many live in sufficiently insular communities that a reminder that other beliefs exist comes as a genuine shock.

Happy Holidays was fine when it meant Christmas and New Year. When it started to be used to mean "felicitations on whatever occasion you personally celebrate at this time" suddenly they have a problem.

[Sunsilver]

BTW, did you know Obama's a Muslim, and once Trump was elected, it was finally okay to say 'Merry Christmas' again?

[Alatar]

What star sign is he?
Capricorn.
Capricorn, eh? What are they like?
He is the son of God, our Messiah.
King of the Jews.
And that's Capricorn, is it?
No, no, that's just him.
Oh, I was going to say, otherwise there'd be a lot of them.

[Cerin]

The whole Merry Christmas thing as always seemed so silly to me because there are those like Cerin who are upset at being "stigmatized" for daring to say it. Maybe that is a real thing but to my knowledge nobody is saying that if you say Merry Christmas to strangers you are a terrible, awful, evil human being. All anyone is saying is that it's nicer to say the broader happy holidays. That's all. It's just nicer. Because it can be a little irritating to those who don't celebrate Christmas, it's more polite to avoid saying that to strangers. The guardians of enlightenment are not going to come hunt you down with torches and pitchforks if you don't choose the somewhat more polite option, despite what the right wing's culture war propaganda would have people believe.

This is not a particular issue with me; I was simply pointing out that people did not suddenly start complaining about 'Happy Holidays' for no reason, as elengil implied.

(I actually would not say 'Merry Christmas' or any other holiday greeting to a stranger in this day and age, as that would be making unwarranted assumptions.)

[elengil]

She left out the part about the phrase, 'Merry Christmas' being stigmatized as an unacceptable form of holiday greeting

I didn't 'leave' it out, I just failed to mention it as it never happened. No one was ever stigmatized for saying Merry Christmas at Christmas.

This is not a particular issue with me; I was simply pointing out that people did not suddenly start complaining about 'Happy Holidays' for no reason

Yes, they did. The 'war on Christmas' was entirely fabricated to showcase the "Liberal PC culture gone amok!" claim, not because there was some basis for it but because it appealed to a certain demographic that those spreading the fabrication wanted to appeal to.

[Sunsilver]

Yes, they did. The 'war on Christmas' was entirely fabricated to showcase the "Liberal PC culture gone amok!" claim, not because there was some basis for it but because it appealed to a certain demographic that those spreading the fabrication wanted to appeal to.

Yeah, the point I was trying to make in my above post...

Edit: Alatar, where is that quote from? Sounds like it might be Pratchett.

[Alatar]

Alatar, where is that quote from? Sounds like it might be Pratchett.

Life of Brian! Python were way ahead of Pratchett.

[Frelga]

What is this I'm hearing about Philadelphia almost exploding overnight? :Q

[RoseMorninStar]

To be fair to mass media, it's really just the conservative pundits who are pandering to the small group for whom religious freedom means the freedom for people of their specific religion to impose their beliefs on everyone else. Of that group, many live in sufficiently insular communities that a reminder that other beliefs exist comes as a genuine shock.

Happy Holidays was fine when it meant Christmas and New Year. When it started to be used to mean "felicitations on whatever occasion you personally celebrate at this time" suddenly they have a problem.

These are my thoughts as well.

Paraphrasing somewhat from an article in The Atlantic, Eisenhower had mailed non-denominational cards in the 1950s, to little outcry. (...) "Season's Greetings" was used on White House holiday correspondence by no less than Dwight D. Eisenhower in the 1950s. Likewise, Presidents Kennedy, Johnson, Carter, Reagan, and Clinton (...) The current 'debate' began in 2005 with Bill O'Reilly (that paragon of virtue) from Fox news. That year President George W. Bush followed Eisenhower’s example and wished his Christmas card recipients a happy “holiday season", a turn of phrase that prompted no end of bile. Meanwhile, the (consumerism and) celebration of Christmas doesn't seem to be in any danger of disappearing.

I often hear complaints that Muslims want to impose “their way of life” on non-Muslims, but I don't view the imposing of 'Merry Christmas' (or other personal customs) any differently. What is improper isn't what phrase is used (in my humble opinion) but when one is wished a 'Happy Holiday' and the person smugly sneers back, 'Merry Christmas'. It's ugly and not very kind nor Christian and defeats the purpose of saying anything at all. While I am certain this doesn't apply to everyone, I have come to view those who garb themselves (literally or metaphorically) with a holier-than-thou persona on the surface as those who generally have less substance within.


What's happening in Philadelphia?

[Frelga]

Refinery explosion: How Philly dodged a catastrophe

The reason: 433 uses highly toxic hydrofluoric acid. A major accidental release could suddenly send a dangerous cloud of hydrogen fluoride drifting over South Philadelphia and other heavily populated neighborhoods.

I've heard people say online that the fire had the potential to cause a disaster rivaling Bhopal. Happily, there were no casualties. The company had since announced that they will close the plant.

[RoseMorninStar]

[elengil]

https://www.businessinsider.com/patrick ... r=facebook

A digital consultant for President Donald Trump's 2020 re-election campaign used his spare time to create fake campaign websites for top Democratic candidates...

The fake Biden site, however, [has] had more unique visitors than the real campaign webpage

[RoseMorninStar]

Like all narcissists, they do what they accuse other people of doing so as to absolve themselves of any culpability (it is not guilt. They have no guilt). This is why Trump rationalizes that everything is 'fake news' and that 'Everybody does it.'

As it is when dealing with any narcissist, it will end, but it will not end well. They will take anyone and everyone down with them that they can.