Cultural Appropriation

[Frelga]

Jeeesus, why is it so hard to say "Sorry if that brought up traumatic memories, I totally didn't mean to reference those horrible events and I will try to be more careful in the future."

Because she totally meant to and is speaking to people who are totally OK with her meaning it?

I was trying to explain American politics to my parents, and finally my dad said, "That would only make sense if most Americans were racist." He is right.

[elengil]

Jeeesus, why is it so hard to say "Sorry if that brought up traumatic memories, I totally didn't mean to reference those horrible events and I will try to be more careful in the future."

Because she totally meant to and is speaking to people who are totally OK with her meaning it?

I was trying to explain American politics to my parents, and finally my dad said, "That would only make sense if most Americans were racist." He is right.

It doesn't even have to be most Americans, just most of her voting base.

The truth is, she isn't sorry! She won't try to be more careful in future. Even if she didn't explicitly mean to reference those events, she doesn't care that it does, she doesn't care the reality of those words.

This is what I've been trying to say about we don't let those doing the hurting decide that others should not be hurt by their words.

[yovargas]

Even if she totally meant it in the most super racist way possible, you are still supposed to say "oops, sorry, didn't mean it like that" because you're a damn public official. Ugh!

(Getting hit by a car causes actual hurt whether or not the driver intended to hit you. Intention is kind of irrelevant sometimes.)

[River]

I think what yov and TT mean about actual harm being done isn't that the person causing the offense gets the final say. Rather that there needs to be some objective measure of harm. Which can be tough when talking about feelings.

[Primula Baggins]

Jeeesus, why is it so hard to say "Sorry if that brought up traumatic memories, I totally didn't mean to reference those horrible events and I will try to be more careful in the future."

If she really didn't mean to do exactly that, she picked a very odd event to use to praise a supporter. In my view, it could reasonably be considered a dog whistle to racists.

(Sorry for the late reply—I'm in a rush and didn't realize there was already another page.)

[Primula Baggins]

I think what yov and TT mean about actual harm being done isn't that the person causing the offense gets the final say. Rather that there needs to be some objective measure of harm. Which can be tough when talking about feelings.

Which is why I think it's right that the one who was hurt gets the final say. That's the only person with direct knowledge.

[RoseMorninStar]

The tone-deafness is astounding. Although I don't think it's really tone-deafness in this case.. it's 'code' pretending to be innocence.

[River]

I think what yov and TT mean about actual harm being done isn't that the person causing the offense gets the final say. Rather that there needs to be some objective measure of harm. Which can be tough when talking about feelings.

Which is why I think it's right that the one who was hurt gets the final say. That's the only person with direct knowledge.

This makes me nervous only because I've dealt with some pretty intense attention-seekers. Not a common type to be sure, but there needs to be a way to filter them out.

[Primula Baggins]

I agree, River—I've had the same experience here and there. But if I'm going to have to believe someone, and possibly be wrong, I'd rather be wrong about believing the victim.

[Frelga]

Meanwhile.

https://twitter.com/girlsreallyrule/sta ... 4077321216

You have got to see this.

In order to defend Cindy Hyde-Smith from accusations of racism, MI* Gov. Phil Bryant doubles down by singling out black people to ask what about the "20 million abortions black people have had" and that we should be talking about that. https://t.co/smG0GPUtXt

So that was definitely an innocent comment not at all calculated to play on racist sentiment.

* typo in tweet, it's MS

[River]

Let me guess. He also puts out fires with gasoline.

[Frelga]

And then claims that you are stifling his freedoms when you try to take the can away, yes.

This is relevant to the thread. Because that kind of blatant racism, from an elected official no less, is what people have to deal with every day. It's exhausting. It can be scary. So when a perfectly well intentioned person mentions blackface in a "harmless" context, it's on top of that. It's on top of your local candidate referring to a public hanging, and your aunt telling you how her cousin was lynched, and police shooting a black security guard for being a genuine hero. That's the harm.

I can't claim I understand African-American experience. But it's the anniversary of the Kristallnacht, and only a few days since Pittsburgh. So I do have some idea of what a few innocent words can do, on top of many, many not-innocent words.

[yovargas]

Meanwhile.

https://twitter.com/girlsreallyrule/sta ... 4077321216

You have got to see this.

In order to defend Cindy Hyde-Smith from accusations of racism, MI* Gov. Phil Bryant doubles down by singling out black people to ask what about the "20 million abortions black people have had" and that we should be talking about that. https://t.co/smG0GPUtXt

[Lalaith]

And then claims that you are stifling his freedoms when you try to take the can away, yes.

This is relevant to the thread. Because that kind of blatant racism, from an elected official no less, is what people have to deal with every day. It's exhausting. It can be scary. So when a perfectly well intentioned person mentions blackface in a "harmless" context, it's on top of that. It's on top of your local candidate referring to a public hanging, and your aunt telling you how her cousin was lynched, and police shooting a black security guard for being a genuine hero. That's the harm.

I can't claim I understand African-American experience. But it's the anniversary of the Kristallnacht, and only a few days since Pittsburgh. So I do have some idea of what a few innocent words can do, on top of many, many not-innocent words.

And, yes, to all of this.


I'm in the camp that would like to have some objective way of measuring offense, but I honestly have no idea how that can be done. The only thing I can think of is that the majority of people in that culture itself would have to say, "Nah, that's not offensive." I can't think of an example of a majority of a culture saying that something isn't offensive, but I can think of plenty where they say that something is offensive. For example, the n word has been deemed offensive. (I happen to agree with that, but there you go.) The majority of black people have said that it's off limits (unless you are black, different topic). So the cultural zeitgeist in America is now if I, as a white person, use the n word, I am being deeply offensive and racist. That makes sense to me. The culture in question has made the decision. It doesn't necessarily come down to individuals, particularly individuals getting their panties in a wad over something ridiculous. This is a real and deep offense, and black culture has spoken. I think some of these other things—like white people wearing dreads*—are still being figured out, and we don't know yet what the majority of black people might decide. If people could just learn to dialogue meaningfully and respectfully, that would be helpful. And, of course, in our day and age, it's hard to separate out whether something is felt by a majority of people or just being complained about loudly by a few.

We should get rid of Facebook and just go back to messageboards.


*To me, this isn't offensive, but I need to be respectful and listen to the people who say that they are. And, then, I like to know the reasoning behind why they're offended, just as I like to know the history of the potential offense. In this case, like someone else pointed out, dreads aren't exclusive to black Americans or black culture, and this is part of why I don't think they should be considered offensive. However, time will tell.

There needs to be a whole lot more listening on the part of white Americans.

[yovargas]

For example, the n word has been deemed offensive. (I happen to agree with that, but there you go.)

But it wasn't like people just decided arbitrarily to deem that awful word offensive. There is objectively a very long and ugly history - and present! - of that word being used to treat black people as less than human. That word has often been tied to the murder of blacks (often by the lynchings that politician is bafflingly refusing to acknowledge). It is, objectively, a word that has been used to profoundly demean a whole group of people, whether or not an individual intends it that way or, perhaps just as importantly, one black individual isn't bothered by the word (I have known black individuals who didn't really care about the word being used).

Of course perfect objectivity is impossible to achieve but it should be possible to communicate to empathetic human being how you are harmed if you are being harmed.

[Lalaith]

I don't disagree with you, and maybe that wasn't the best example to use. What about the example of dreads? This one feels more ambiguous to me.

[elengil]

I don't disagree with you, and maybe that wasn't the best example to use. What about the example of dreads? This one feels more ambiguous to me.

It's actually kind of the same thing. Schools, businesses, etc call hair like that 'unprofessional' on black people. They ban natural black hairstyles, but say it's enforced equally - yeah, that's nice, that's like banning straight hair but saying it's equally enforced. Except it only affects people whose hair is naturally like that, right? So schools ban "puffball" hair and "afros" and "tight braids" and "dreads" but they aren't banning black hair. Conveniently these rules happen to only predominantly affect black students. So it's basically banning black hair and black hairstyles.

Even if not outright banned, culturally they are seen as 'ghetto' hair, it conveys a certain negative view of who is wearing them. It isn't celebrated, it is stigmatized. Not to mention yet again the history of having to severely alter your natural hair to try to 'conform' to European standards. Chemicals, hot irons, etc.

A black reporter gets fired for explaining why she keeps her hair short.

But if you're white, you're so 'trendy' or you're a culture-loving hippy, and it's okay, it's cool, man, chill.

Yes, this is all generalized. But it disproportionally punishes black people and rewards white people for the same damn thing.

That is why it is considered appropriation. Not because white people are doing something that doesn't "belong" to them, but because if you're black it's just one more thing you get criticized for and white people get praised for or at best don't have to worry about.

[Frelga]

Of course perfect objectivity is impossible to achieve but it should be possible to communicate to empathetic human being how you are harmed if you are being harmed.

So now the person you just harmed has to not only suffer the harm you caused, they have to prove that they've been harmed in hopes that you will stop. And how are they supposed to know that you are empathetic, and not another asshole who "just wants them to educate him"?

[elengil]

Of course perfect objectivity is impossible to achieve but it should be possible to communicate to empathetic human being how you are harmed if you are being harmed.

So now the person you just harmed has to not only suffer the harm you caused, they have to prove that they've been harmed in hopes that you will stop. And how are they supposed to know that you are empathetic, and not another asshole who "just wants them to educate him"?

Or just have a 'friendly' debate over whether or not X should really be considered to have committed harm or if Y just needs to grow a thicker skin. All in an effort to find common ground, of course.

[yovargas]

So now the person you just harmed has to not only suffer the harm you caused, they have to prove that they've been harmed in hopes that you will stop.

I mean, if you want people to stop doing something, you have to tell them why. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me.