Escaping the Echo Chamber

[Cerin]

hate speech
noun
abusive or threatening speech or writing that expresses prejudice against a particular group, especially on the basis of race, religion, or sexual orientation.
"we don't tolerate any form of hate speech"

So 'hate' speech isn't about hate, it's actually disfavor speech, much as the 'phobe' appellations aren't actually naming a fear phenomenon. I think they're both unfortunate but very clever and effective contrivances to pressure conformity of thought, or at least, of speech.

[yovargas]

I don't think calling abusive or threatening speech merely "disfavor" is fair or accurate.

That said, the original tweet was not abusive, or threatening, or prejudiced by any meaningful definition of those words. It's upsetting speech, but that's all.

[Cerin]

I don't think calling abusive or threatening speech merely "disfavor" is fair or accurate.

After the example we were given of 'hate speech,' I was presuming a similar exaggeration in the terms 'abusive' and 'threatening' in the context of the definition.

I agree that truly abusive and threatening speech would not fall under the term 'disfavor.'

[Túrin Turambar]

I don't think that Folau's statement counts as hate speech. But it doesn't have to be hate speech for Rugby Australia to have a commercial interest in him not posting it. The question is how far that commercial interest extends.

[Frelga]

Can we back up this Tonka truck? Where exactly does it say in the Bible that gay people are going to hell?

[yovargas]

It's not really the point, but the Bible contains multiple references to sinners being eternally damned, some references commonly interpreted as meaning that damnation will be by fire, and a few places that can be interpreted as indicating men having sex with men is a sin. (Interestingly, to my knowledge there are no such references regarding women being with women.) Put that all together and you get the belief that homosexuals will be damned to hell, an unsurprising conclusion given the Bible's general positions on sex.

But again, that's not really the point.

[Frelga]

I thought it was precisely the point. The entire defense of the bigoted post was that it was based on the actual Biblical quote and therefore somehow different from regular bigoted speech. So where's the quote?

[yovargas]

No, the point is that the concepts of god, sin, and hell are 100% religious/spiritual concepts and I do not believe that it is just or fair to punish people for they're 100% religious/spiritual beliefs.

But here's the quote anyway.

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who submit to or perform homosexual acts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

[elengil]

I thought it was precisely the point. The entire defense of the bigoted post was that it was based on the actual Biblical quote and therefore somehow different from regular bigoted speech. So where's the quote?

While I haven't seen it, it is very likely a quote (or paraphrase) of 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

The exact phrasing changes with translation version. It technically does not actually say they are going to hell.

edit: oops, cross posted with Yov

[elengil]

No, the point is that the concepts of god, sin, and hell are 100% religious/spiritual concepts and I do not believe that it is just or fair to punish people for they're 100% religious/spiritual beliefs.

But society demands that we put limits on people for what may be their 100% religious/spiritual beliefs. We don't allow human sacrifice no matter how ardently a person believes in it, nor do we allow stoning of your neighbors anymore, even though the Bible very clearly tells us to do so. We don't allow people to do a good many things, no matter their beliefs, and simply believing it 100% is not an excuse for an action which is not allowed (either legally or socially).

He wasn't punished for his beliefs, he was fired for his actions.

[yovargas]

But society demands that we put limits on people for what may be their 100% religious/spiritual beliefs. We don't allow human sacrifice no matter how ardently a person believes in it, nor do we allow stoning of your neighbors anymore, even though the Bible very clearly tells us to do so.

Human sacrifice and stoning are not god, sin, and hell are 100% religious/spiritual concepts as they have very non-spiritual effects, unlike the ideas about sin and hell.

[yovargas]

If I were to tell you that in my religion, people born in the month of June will be sent to the land of Barpink upon death, where they will be eternally flung into the infinite lake of acid by the demon bird Quoltoso, unless they kneel face down during a full moon and beg for the three-headed goddess of Pokk to rescue them......... would you consider me hateful towards people born in June?

[elengil]

But society demands that we put limits on people for what may be their 100% religious/spiritual beliefs. We don't allow human sacrifice no matter how ardently a person believes in it, nor do we allow stoning of your neighbors anymore, even though the Bible very clearly tells us to do so.

Human sacrifice and stoning are not god, sin, and hell are 100% religious/spiritual concepts as they have very non-spiritual effects, unlike the ideas about sin and hell.

Ideas about sin and hell absolutely do have very real non-spiritual effects. People didn't stone others for fun, they stoned them because of their ideals about sin. Very 100% believed ideas about sin. We as a society have deemed: You can believe whatever you wish - you have that absolute right. You cannot undertake any action you wish based solely on that belief. That is where the line is drawn. Believe what you wish, but actions must still conform to legal and social limits.

would you consider me hateful towards people born in June?

How many of your followers routinely murder people born in June? Or cast them out of society? Or force them to undergo Birth Month Conversion Therapy? Do they persecute people having sex in September? Drag them from their beds to stand before an angry mob Barpink-bent on punishing them for the possible conception of a child to be born in June?

[Frelga]

I thought it was precisely the point. The entire defense of the bigoted post was that it was based on the actual Biblical quote and therefore somehow different from regular bigoted speech. So where's the quote?

While I haven't seen it, it is very likely a quote (or paraphrase) of 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

The exact phrasing changes with translation version. It technically does not actually say they are going to hell.

edit: oops, cross posted with Yov

Oh. Paul. I always forget about Paul.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

There was no bible verse included, so far as I can tell. Here is the post that he made:

[yovargas]

How many of your followers routinely murder people born in June? Or cast them out of society? Or force them to undergo Birth Month Conversion Therapy? Do they persecute people having sex in September? Drag them from their beds to stand before an angry mob Barpink-bent on punishing them for the possible conception of a child to be born in June?

And as soon as a person starts advocating or engaging in any of these things, then you can get mad. Not before.

[elengil]

And as soon as a person starts advocating or engaging in any of these things, then you can get mad. Not before.

I'm not mad. No one here is mad. His employer terminated his employment. His freedom of religion wasn't hindered, his action had a consequence.

[yovargas]

I'm not mad. No one here is mad.

I imagine the people here that accused him of spouting hate speech are probably not very pleased.

[elengil]

I'm not mad. No one here is mad.

I imagine the people here that accused him of spouting hate speech are probably not very pleased.

That does not make them angry.

[yovargas]

Oh for goodness sakes, not entirely beside the point I'm making.