Escaping the Echo Chamber

[yovargas]

I've seen woke kids say there's no ethical consumption under capitalism. Neither I nor they are exactly sure what that means....

If you ever find out please let me know cuz I keep seeing it and it always baffles me....

[elengil]

Rose, if it makes you feel better I don't think anyone was suggesting that *you* advocated for any of those things, I think it was just a diving off point into discussing what PETA actually advocates vs what people think they advocate.

I don't believe that raising or consuming meat is problematic, though there are very serious problems with how we raise them, and indeed even how we approach agriculture, as being both a negative impact on the environment but also on the quality of our food. We seem to be racing towards as many ways of harming ourselves as we possibly can.

I've seen woke kids say there's no ethical consumption under capitalism. Neither I nor they are exactly sure what that means....

If you ever find out please let me know cuz I keep seeing it and it always baffles me....

I've seen that, and at the time the impression I got was that there is an implied inherent inequality created under capitalism to enrich some by exploiting others, and by extension those who buy into the supply help with the exploitation by buying the cheapest products. The idea of capitalism being, of course, to make money, but never addressing where that money comes from or why those at the top end up with so much of it. While not directly linked to capitalism, the consumerism culture/mentality is also, in a way, at the expense of those least able to afford it. Those with billions to spend on advertising do so to convince the consumer that they are fundamentally lacking and unfulfilled and so must buy their product.

I am not saying I agree, though I also don't entirely disagree. This is just the impression of what the phrase means that I've come away with. I could be entirely wrong in this interpretation, however.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Ironically, vegan lifestyle as practiced by most vegans I know is a privileged choice, with supplements and fancy ingredients, often from distant places. Agave syrup is a lot worse for the environment than bees, for an example.

For the record, that is completely untrue about us and any of the people I know who are vegan, most of whom try very hard to use local produce and other ingredients. You won't find any agave syrup or supplements or 'fancy ingredients' in our house. But we eat very well.

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[Frelga]

V, I have no doubt that you do your best in that, as in all things. Living where I am, I can also make choices about buying local, organic food, including meat, or excluding meat, as I wish.

But it's still a privileged lifestyle, given the price and access to local, organic food, and also the education about nutrition that is required to be a healthy vegan. When you have a small, rigid budget to feed a family, a pound of frozen chicken will go much farther than a pound of organic walnuts for 1/10 of the price.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it! Just that people who act morally superior because of their food choices, usually aren't.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I am doubtful that it would be productive to engage further about this, so I am going to bow out gracefully.

[RoseMorninStar]

In brief - cruelty to animals is bad and we need to be better about raising food animals, if not for their sake then our own.

I don't believe that raising or consuming meat is problematic, though there are very serious problems with how we raise them, and indeed even how we approach agriculture, as being both a negative impact on the environment but also on the quality of our food. We seem to be racing towards as many ways of harming ourselves as we possibly can.

Agree and Agree.

Ironically, vegan lifestyle as practiced by most vegans I know is a privileged choice, with supplements and fancy ingredients, often from distant places. Agave syrup is a lot worse for the environment than bees, for an example.

I've seen woke kids say there's no ethical consumption under capitalism. Neither I nor they are exactly sure what that means, but I feel it applies to veganism somehow.

Agreed (about privilege & dietary choices-that goes for all of us especially in 1st world countries no matter our chosen diet).
What the 'woke kids' say:
Agave syrup isn't a health food, it's worse than High Fructose Corn Syrup.

As far as companion animals - I am aware that there are multiple problems in the world, and we all survive because enough different people care about enough different things with a passion. But we still have children in cages. We have children taken from living parents and sometimes adopted out to strangers. So, I really can't find it in my heart to worry about the plight of house cats at the moment.

Agreed and Agreed.
Some of the points made above tie in with the confusing paradox I found myself pondering. For sake of clarity I will be a bit blunter (and more heartless) than I care to be. (I should probably just shut up because there are no easy answers. ) But because I'm a fool (or a glutton for punishment) I'll wade in anyway...

Properly and humanely raised livestock or properly bred and cared for domestic pets are not at issue. The conundrum applies more of how to deal with animals who have been allowed to become invasive feral species, 'pets gone wild' (cats, dogs, snakes, etc..) and the problem this presents to the eco-system, the environment, AND our desire to 'save' these creatures and the resulting environmental impact and the many resources that could perhaps be spent elsewhere (as Frelga points out above).

During a conversation on naming pets a friend of mine mentioned her workplace fosters litters of rescued pets-set-loose/feral kittens to be put up for adoption. Her workplace is in a rural area. She told me that over the course of a year or two they had fostered and adopted out hundreds and hundreds of cats. That kinda boggled my mind and it reminded me of problems I'd run across elsewhere (see below). The problem is not unusual and it is on the rise. Not just with cats, but also with snakes, etc.. By 'rescuing' the pets-set-loose &/or feral animals there would be less impact on the eco-system and native fauna, birds, fish, etc.. but it creates another stress on resources required to feed and care for these saved/rescued animals, namely commercially prepared food-mainly meat. To be blunt: When does it become unsustainable to 'rescue' animals that have gotten out of control and what is the best way to deal with them? If we are being urged to responsibly cut back on our meat consumption to reduce our carbon footprint/reduce greenhouse gasses, how does this fit into the picture?

Several years ago we visited Chincoteague island. They have a cat problem as many islands do. They have chosen to catch, neuter/spay, and release. They are hoping there will be less impact on the native birds & fauna in the years to come due to their efforts. As with any invasive species cats are playing havoc with the eco-system. In New Zealand the non-native bushtail possum is a big problem. Everywhere has a problem with rats, but we aren't 'rescuing' them and feeding them commercially raised livestock. What created the conflict in my head is that we are literally 'saving' one animal to feed it the meat of another. Am I being heartless?

I am doubtful that it would be productive to engage further about this, so I am going to bow out gracefully.

That is up to you V, it's a difficult subject I know, but I would value your input as a veg*n. My intention in this discussion was not to bash either veg*ns or meat-eaters.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I'm not fully vegan (though Beth is, other than eating honey). I do still eat eggs occasionally and a little dairy.

[RoseMorninStar]

That is why I use the shortcut veg*n.. it encompasses the vegetarian/vegan ..etc..

[Cerin]

I saw it pointed out recently somewhere that the vegan trend is resulting in the invention of some highly processed meat substitute products, which I don't think is a particularly healthy trend. The less processed food is, the better, both for us and the environment.

[elengil]

I saw it pointed out recently somewhere that the vegan trend is resulting in the invention of some highly processed meat substitute products, which I don't think is a particularly healthy trend. The less processed food is, the better, both for us and the environment.

My gut instinct is 'well of course' but I would like to see the data on the impact on the environment before I jump on that bandwagon. But in general I would prefer to stay away from something that had to go through such a metamorphosis to make it look like it is entirely not what it is.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

That is why I use the shortcut veg*n.. it encompasses the vegetarian/vegan ..etc..

That makes sense. And without getting drawn too deeply further into the discussion, I will note that we don't eat "highly processed meat substitute products" such as Beyond Meat Impossible Burgers.

[RoseMorninStar]

I saw it pointed out recently somewhere that the vegan trend is resulting in the invention of some highly processed meat substitute products, which I don't think is a particularly healthy trend. The less processed food is, the better, both for us and the environment.

I agree. No one should be eating Frankenfood, neither veg*ns OR people who eat an average American diet. Highly processed 'Frankenfoods' are not limited to veg*n options.

[Sunsilver]

I agree! I try to avoid highly processed food. The most highly processed thing I've had to eat so far today was the marzipan icing on a piece of store-bought Christmas cake!

[RoseMorninStar]

I agree! I try to avoid highly processed food. The most highly processed thing I've had to eat so far today was the marzipan icing on a piece of store-bought Christmas cake!

Gotta treat yourself once in awhile.

[Griffon64]

Ironically, vegan lifestyle as practiced by most vegans I know is a privileged choice, with supplements and fancy ingredients, often from distant places.

I'd agree with that. Being in a position to place any restriction on your dietary habits that is not forced on you by your economic circumstances or health really is privilege, hard as that may be to swallow.

I've thought about this a fair bit over the years. So many of the humans in this world are not in a position to take moral positions with the food they eat. They have to eat what they can get or starve. So my personal, privileged moral stance on my dietary habits is that I'll restrict what I eat for moral causes when there is no more hunger in the world. My moral crusade ( because I'm no exception to humanity in general, we do love to feel superior to others about something! ) is trying hard to avoid wasting food and water.

[Inanna]

All these arguments completely ignore supply-demand economics, and the fact that there is no way meat production can be sustainable and ethical if people continue to eat product at the prices they are now used to.

[RoseMorninStar]

My moral crusade (... ) is trying hard to avoid wasting food and water.

A worthy crusade.

All these arguments completely ignore supply-demand economics, and the fact that there is no way meat production can be sustainable and ethical if people continue to eat product at the prices they are now used to.

Which touches a bit on the topic I've been trying to discuss without much success, which is:
What is the best (humane?) way to deal with animals who have been allowed to become invasive feral species, 'pets gone wild' (cats, dogs, snakes, etc..) and the problem this presents to the eco-system, the environment, AND our desire to 'save' these creatures and the resulting environmental impact and the many resources that could perhaps be spent elsewhere?

While many people feed their pets/livestock commercially prepared food, I make homemade dog food so perhaps I am more acutely aware of this but: it requires meat. Cats and snakes and many other creatures require meat as well. If we are 'saving' one animal, we have to raise others to be slaughtered in order to feed those we 'save'. I am not a heartless pet-hating person, but does this not create a confusing paradox for anyone else??

[elengil]

. I am not a heartless pet-hating person, but does this not create a confusing paradox for anyone else??

I don't see it as a paradox because I don't see an inherent moral problem with raising animals for food, not even for the food for other animals. I only see a massive problem in how we raise and treat them, but not the concept itself.

As for how to deal with invasive feral animals, I believe Australia is working on a system of mass spay/neutering to help quell the populations. I know other places have done so, too. That, to me, seems to be the best way to go about it. Don't kill them, just prevent more of them. Or, if we are going to kill them, use them for something! But don't just kill them to get rid of them.

[RoseMorninStar]

As for how to deal with invasive feral animals, I believe Australia is working on a system of mass spay/neutering to help quell the populations. I know other places have done so, too. That, to me, seems to be the best way to go about it. Don't kill them, just prevent more of them. Or, if we are going to kill them, use them for something! But don't just kill them to get rid of them.

It is a sad conundrum. I don't have a problem humanely raising animals for food either. The topic really struck me as odd when a friend was trying to convince me to give up meat (for all said and valid reasons) but in the same conversation she was talking about rescuing cats. It's struck me as..a puzzling juxtaposition/contradiction.

[elengil]

So, it's that time of year again when objections are raised to a variety of songs, so to gets us started in the spirit, here's...