Escaping the Echo Chamber
Re: Escaping the Echo Chamber
Yes but most people of the internet don't start every post with "IMO". I always assume people are stating their opinion rather than undeniable fact.
The Vinyamars on Stage! This time at Bag End
Re: Escaping the Echo Chamber
An IMO might have helped slightly but still wouldn't have gotten rid of the obnoxiously commanding tone. "Women - Be X, else I won't want you" is only the tiniest bit less assholish than "Women - Be X, else no one will want you", regardless of the X.
Not to mention the seeming assumption that it should be important to women that this man desire them. "A good woman is one who spends her time making sure I find her attractive."
Not to mention the seeming assumption that it should be important to women that this man desire them. "A good woman is one who spends her time making sure I find her attractive."
Last edited by yovargas on Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I wanna love somebody but I don't know how
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists
- elengil
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Re: Escaping the Echo Chamber
While that's true, there's still a difference between "How To Be A Beautiful Woman" - which is presented as a list of standards women "should" strive to attain, and "What I Find Beautiful" which is implicitly accepting that not all people will agree or that not all women need to change to meet this standard.Alatar wrote:Yes but most people of the internet don't start every post with "IMO". I always assume people are stating their opinion rather than undeniable fact.
How To Be A Beautiful Woman..., does he think he's writing a manual for us?? Like If you want to be beautiful, here's your checklist?
Actually, it's not even that, it's that in stating it as How To Be A Beautiful Woman he is just flat out assuming that his opinion is other people's opinion.
The dumbest thing I've ever bought
was a 2020 planner.
"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
was a 2020 planner.
"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
Re: Escaping the Echo Chamber
Oh I don't think there's any question that this guy is a douche. I guess i'm just trying to see past that to the actual content of his "List".
The Vinyamars on Stage! This time at Bag End
- elengil
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Re: Escaping the Echo Chamber
I'm actually much more angrily amused by the last point on his list than the first.Alatar wrote:Oh I don't think there's any question that this guy is a douche. I guess i'm just trying to see past that to the actual content of his "List".
The dumbest thing I've ever bought
was a 2020 planner.
"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
was a 2020 planner.
"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
Re: Escaping the Echo Chamber
As a bit of a tangential aside, this kind of attitude is definitely not exclusive to how men treat women as I see it all the time among gay men. Tons of gay dating profiles will do things like make sure you know up front who they do not want to talk to, without bothering to explain why I would want to in the first place. As if their desirability is such a given that all you need to know is whether or not you are lucky enough to qualify for the honor of speaking to them.
(Phrases like "no femmes or fatties" were notoriously common for a long time in profiles, though thankfully most guys seem to have now gotten the message that things like this make you look like a huge asshole.) (Have I mentioned that dating sucks??)
(Phrases like "no femmes or fatties" were notoriously common for a long time in profiles, though thankfully most guys seem to have now gotten the message that things like this make you look like a huge asshole.) (Have I mentioned that dating sucks??)
Last edited by yovargas on Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I wanna love somebody but I don't know how
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists
Re: Escaping the Echo Chamber
Yes. It's the weird, sort of confrontational aspect of that list that ruffles me more than the existence of it.yovargas wrote:As a bit of a tangential aside, this kind of attitude is definitely not exclusive to how men treat women as I see it all the time among gay men. Tons of gay dating profiles will do things like make sure you know up front who they do not want to talk to, without bothering to explain why I would want to in the first place. As if their desirability is such a given that all you need to know is whether or not you are lucky enough to qualify for the honor of speaking to them. :eyeroll:
I wonder if this guy's approach works, what kind of women he attracts, and how he ultimately treats them. I wonder the same about the gay men you're talking about too. I have this sneaking suspicion that a lot of the misogyny getting called out these days is also, to a certain extent, mirrored in the gay community. Relationships involve a lot of power dynamics, especially if even a hypothetical possibility of sex is involved.
When you can do nothing what can you do?
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Re: Escaping the Echo Chamber
That sort of approach works just fine on a subset of women, which is why it exists in the first place. And it also contains a certain element of the Trumpian "being hated is better than being overlooked" strategy.
Re: Escaping the Echo Chamber
I'm not even mad. I did wonder if he'd be happier describing his ideal man. There's nothing unusual about a man being attracted to a slimmer, more boyish shape in women, but if that's the first thing that pops to mind, what I hear is "a woman should not look too much like a woman". Which is why I asked for a show of hands.elengil wrote:I'm actually much more angrily amused by the last point on his list than the first.Alatar wrote:Oh I don't think there's any question that this guy is a douche. I guess i'm just trying to see past that to the actual content of his "List".
And that's my controversial opinion for this hour.
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
- elengil
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Re: Escaping the Echo Chamber
Oh see and I don't at all equate thin with being boyish, necessarily. I mean I know a lot of times they're put together, like with the current model trend, but to me thin is just the other way of saying "not fat". Thin doesn't have to mean flat-chested, just flat-stomached.Frelga wrote:There's nothing unusual about a man being attracted to a slimmer, more boyish shape in women, but if that's the first thing that pops to mind, what I hear is "a woman should not look too much like a woman". Which is why I asked for a show of hands.
The dumbest thing I've ever bought
was a 2020 planner.
"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
was a 2020 planner.
"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
Re: Escaping the Echo Chamber
Yeah, but boobs are basically lumps of fat, and the body sheds that fat before it flattens the belly. There are exceptions to every rule, of course, but big boobs on a thin frame are an exception or a result of surgery. You can still have a slim waist (my friend used to be able to span mine with her hands, ages ago) but thin ain't gonna be the first word to describe you.
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
- Dave_LF
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Re: Escaping the Echo Chamber
Then for the record, if I had a list, "thin" would not be the first thing on it. But I don't, and in my experience, any such list promptly falls apart when confronted with real people anyway. What's that thing they say again? "No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy."Frelga wrote:There's nothing unusual about a man being attracted to a slimmer, more boyish shape in women, but if that's the first thing that pops to mind, what I hear is "a woman should not look too much like a woman". Which is why I asked for a show of hands.
Re: Escaping the Echo Chamber
To paraphrase a famous poet, when a girl walks in with an itty bitty waist and a round thing in their face, many gentlemen get sprung.Frelga wrote:Yeah, but boobs are basically lumps of fat, and the body sheds that fat before it flattens the belly. There are exceptions to every rule, of course, but big boobs on a thin frame are an exception or a result of surgery. You can still have a slim waist (my friend used to be able to span mine with her hands, ages ago) but thin ain't gonna be the first word to describe you.
el is right, most (American?) men would just mean "small waist" when they say "thin", aka not over weight. There are certainly plenty women out there who have natural feminine curves while keeping a flat belly, much like some men naturally have flat bellies and broad shoulders.
I wanna love somebody but I don't know how
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists
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Re: Escaping the Echo Chamber
Whereas, if it were just "listen well" rather than "listen to men" it would be high on my list (as well as be high on my list of things that I strive to do well myself).elengil wrote:I'm actually much more angrily amused by the last point on his list than the first.Alatar wrote:Oh I don't think there's any question that this guy is a douche. I guess i'm just trying to see past that to the actual content of his "List".
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
Re: Escaping the Echo Chamber
True, but broad shoulders are muscle, not fat.
Eta: er, that was to yov
Eta: er, that was to yov
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
- elengil
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Re: Escaping the Echo Chamber
Frelga: I guess I'm trying to say from the point of view of a man who would post such a list, boobs are not the same as fat, even if they are literally fat. Thin is not the same as flat-chested. I see this list as someone whose first priority is "not a fat girl", not that he's stating his highest preference is for boyish figures.
Last edited by elengil on Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The dumbest thing I've ever bought
was a 2020 planner.
"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
was a 2020 planner.
"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
Re: Escaping the Echo Chamber
I was looking at Oscars photos to find some examples, but then realized that everyone is corseted and pushed up in a way that is not representative of their actual shape.
But completely OT - did you see Billy Porter's gown? That was a brilliant look.
But completely OT - did you see Billy Porter's gown? That was a brilliant look.
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Re: Escaping the Echo Chamber
Hyper-OT but OMG AMAZING!!Frelga wrote:But completely OT - did you see Billy Porter's gown? That was a brilliant look.
I wanna love somebody but I don't know how
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists
- elengil
- Cat-egorical Herbitual Creativi-Tea
- Posts: 6248
- Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:45 pm
- Location: Between the Mountains and the Sea
Re: Escaping the Echo Chamber
has to look it up because totally clueless and ZOMG WOW that dress is something else!!
https://twentytwowords.com/billy-porter ... ux-oscars/
https://twentytwowords.com/billy-porter ... ux-oscars/
The dumbest thing I've ever bought
was a 2020 planner.
"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
was a 2020 planner.
"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
- Voronwë the Faithful
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Re: Escaping the Echo Chamber
That headline is incorrect. He didn't wear a gown instead of a tux, he wore a gown and a tux at the same time!
ETA: And, at least based on the pictures that I have seen, pulled it off magnificently.
ETA: And, at least based on the pictures that I have seen, pulled it off magnificently.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."