Escaping the Echo Chamber

[Dave_LF]

Do not compare raping a woman to taking a guy's wallet.

That's not what I was doing. My point was if a man finds himself on the receiving end of some crime while engaged in questionable sexual activity, society is perfectly happy to play blame the victim with him too. I picked a different form of victimization in order to keep the scenario realistic; I don't think anyone here is denying that sexual assault happens to women way more often than it does to men. But for the sake of the point...

The equivalent situation would be the guy heading to a hotel with a girl and being raped by another man.

The equivalent situation would be heading to a hotel with a girl and being raped by another woman. So let's imagine that happened, somehow. You don't think the reaction from the peanut gallery would be "well if he wasn't out cruising bars hitting on sleazy women in the first place, it never would have happened"? And, on top of that, this fun little gem: "dude; what are you complaining about?!" And blame the victim is by no means limited to sex either. I live along Lake Michigan. Every year, about a dozen people wind up drowning out there in boating accidents. And every time, the moment the story breaks, what you hear is "well, was he wearing a life jacket? Then it's his own fault!" This is just what people do, with crimes and accidents of all kinds. As long as the problem is the victim and not the system, nothing has to change.

You are saying that a woman engaging in behavior that is considered normal for men is being reckless

This was to Alatar, but I want to interject because I've heard this sort of thing a few times now. For what it's worth, I've been a man my entire life, and I have never, ever felt that it would be "normal" for me to get drunk and sleep with a stranger I just met in a bar, or that I could admit to doing this without meeting with social reprobation.

[yovargas]

You don't think the reaction from the peanut gallery would be "well if he wasn't our cruising bars hitting on sleazy women in the first place, it never would have happened"?

Honestly, no, not really. I mean, maybe some people, but nowhere near to the same extent, if at all.

[Dave_LF]

Yeah; you said something like that before, and I found it puzzling then too. Because if it were me, that is absolutely the sort of reaction I would expect; enough so that I'd be reluctant to even report anything had happened (well; there are all sorts or reasons I'd be reluctant to admit to picking up women in bars at this point, but use your imagination ). I don't know. Maybe my perceptions are incorrect; maybe it's just Midwestern culture vs. those licentiousness coastal elites.

[Impenitent]

I can't see it, Dave.

Men, on the whole, are judged by different standards. On the whole. Clearly, not standards which mesh with yours (or those of other HoF males).


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[Inanna]

Dave, Al, what would you think if the standard for women unsafe behavior, in which it was considered as "their fault" was as follows:
Wearing tight jeans
Wearing sleeveless shirts
Wearing a short skirt (mid-thigh)
Going out for a movie with a man
Going to a pub
Going for a walk in their neighborhood after it was dark (which in winter in Delhi would be 7:00pm).

And if we are going to get into religion: displaying their hair. The hair on their HEAD, mind you.

[yovargas]

I can't see it, Dave.

Men, on the whole, are judged by different standards. On the whole. Clearly, not standards which mesh with yours (or those of other HoF males).


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Yeah. Like, sure, there are the more conservative and traditional folks who might tut tut about it, but generally speaking - guys often go to bars go hoping to get laid, "everyone" knows that, it is normal and expected and accepted. There's nothing weird about a guy saying he was at a bar and took a girl home.

[Dave_LF]

To Inanna: In no case is it her fault.

To yov:

There's nothing weird about a guy saying he was at a bar and took a girl home.

See, my experience is different. I guess that's all there can be to say.
Edit in response to your edit: Well yeah; everyone knows that (some!) guys actually do do that, just like everyone knows (some!) girls do. But neither one is supposed to openly admit it; outside the proverbial locker room anyway.

[Alatar]

Inanna, it's never "their fault". I thought I made that clear several times now.

[Inanna]

Ok. Sorry - I will take that back.

All I meant to say was that in your example you are saying that both men & women should not do stupid things like have a drink
& go to a room to have sex with someone they just met.

What about wearing jeans? Or walking at 7:00pm? Would that perspective apply in these examples as well?

[Alatar]

No, I don't think wearing jeans or walking after 7pm in a well lit area carry much risk for most people. Of course, if its 3pm in a dark alley, then it does. Are you asking me for a curfew?

[Inanna]

No, I’m saying that these actions do carry risk for women in some parts of India. Urban, populated parts. And that the standards for what is risky or not changes from culture to culture - but it is always women who are held accountable for indulging in “unsafe” behavior.

[JewelSong]

No, I don't think wearing jeans or walking after 7pm in a well lit area carry much risk for most people. Of course, if its 3pm in a dark alley, then it does. Are you asking me for a curfew?

I think the point here is that, many times, women will be "blamed" for their attack due to their behavior, dress or some other thing.

Wearing tight jeans. Wearing a short skirt. Walking alone after...some specified time. Wearing too much makeup. Having your hair styled in a certain way. Wearing short sleeves. Wearing a sleeveless dress. Wearing a low-cut dress. Standing too close to someone. Going to a bar alone. Going anywhere alone. Laughing too loud. Making eye contact. Acting too independent. Acting too coy. Smiling at a stranger. Ignoring a stranger.

None of these behaviors should be "risky." Yet they have all been cited (and more) as justification when a woman is sexually harassed or attacked.

[Alatar]

I feel like everyone is talking past the argument and not addressing the actual issue raised. I'll try to make it clear once again

Nobody ever deserves to be raped
Nobody should be blamed for being a victim
Nobody "brought it on themselves"

We all clear and in agreement on those?

Assuming the answer to all of those is yes, and that there are still Bad People in the world. Is it not wise to be careful? To take calculated risks rather than foolish ones.

I feel like the argument has become "Women never deserve to be raped, therefore Men should never rape", which while inarguable is also aspirational and frankly unworkable as long as there are Bad People.

To give another pointless comparison. "Nobody deserves to be murdered, therefore nobody should murder". So if I walk into the middle of a Gang war, I'll be safe, right? Why should I avoid that area, as all I'm doing is giving criminals power over my body. I should just walk into that area and expect them to respect my rights. Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it.

But that's the current narrative around sexual harassment. To even suggest being careful is "Victim blaming".

[Nin]

Well Al, I see your point and agree on some things and not on others. The problem is that the "careful" for so many women in so many parts of the world includes so much behavior which its totally normal, unquestioned and totally safe for men - the difference is so high...

Now, I can easily admit an affirmation: it is never a good idea for anybody to have drunken sex with a stranger they just met, be it a man or a woman, because of risks of contamination with STD - I could easily sign that. This is one reason why I would also advice my boys not to do it - regardless of the risk of being raped or assaulted.

Only, asking of women to be more careful and so much more careful than men and that all the time and all the degrees - there is a moment of being totally fed up and just asking for a common standard of decent human behavior for everyone.


P.S: what means "king hit"?

[yovargas]

So if I walk into the middle of a Gang war, I'll be safe, right? Why should I avoid that area, as all I'm doing is giving criminals power over my body. I should just walk into that area and expect them to respect my rights. Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it.

Replace "a Gang war" with "basically anywhere there are men" and "criminals" with "men" and you'll see the problem.

Again, most rape is not done by strangers.

[Impenitent]

But I still tell my daughter to take care.
I still urge her to call me at 3am if she needs a lift rather than negotiating isolated tram or bus or train stations. (Actually, I say the same to my son)
Not because it's her fault, her role, her responsibility, but because of statistics and the fear they engender.

It does not mean that I blame the woman when yet another incident is reported in the news.

It means that I recognise the reality of the world.

It also means, of course, that in my parenting I have perpetuated the endemic sexism of society that creates these unfair standards.

Would I be doing her a favour in not educating her about the risks all women face or advocating that she ignore them on principles of equality?

I also find it interesting that rebuttals are consistently addressed to Alatar though my position is similar to his. (Not that I wish to come under fire! You all know I'm a fragile flower in the face of confrontation.)

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[Alatar]

So if I walk into the middle of a Gang war, I'll be safe, right? Why should I avoid that area, as all I'm doing is giving criminals power over my body. I should just walk into that area and expect them to respect my rights. Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it.

Replace "a Gang war" with "basically anywhere there are men" and "criminals" with "men" and you'll see the problem.

Again, most rape is not done by strangers.

Are you really suggesting that women should assume all men are predators, and then take no steps to safeguard themselves? That defies logic.

[Inanna]

Imp, I agree with you, and I agree with Alatar. But it is what Nin said, what *CAN* I do??

And however much Al harps on that it is never insinuated that the woman was at fault - that is exactly what a sentence like “she should have been careful” insinuates.

And I agree that often the extent to which this whole social media shaming nonsense goes on is absolutely pathetic.

[yovargas]

Are you really suggesting that women should assume all men are predators, and then take no steps to safeguard themselves? That defies logic.

I'm not suggesting anything. Not being a woman, I don't feel especially qualified to tell any how to be a woman. But you are making the analogy of walking into a gang zone and the truth is that there is no such "zone" when it comes to sexual assault. It's simply the world. How each woman chooses to cope with that reality is her business. As has been pointed out in this thread, many, many women deal with it by being in a near-constant state of low key fear for their safety. This one woman chose to deal with it by not letting fear rule her life and allowing herself to enjoy her life as she sees fit. I am certainly not going to judge her for making that choice.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

And however much Al harps on that it is never insinuated that the woman was at fault - that is exactly what a sentence like “she should have been careful” insinuates.

This is exactly what I wanted to say.

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