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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:11 pm 
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Spoiler alert - he was wrong.



But.... you don't actually know that? I don't know what this particular individual did but what if his attempts at kindness and empathy convinced five people to not join in on the violence, when anger and violence would have stopped none?

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But if you want to talk about what works - there have been several articles linked in this thread featuring "reformed" racists, and every single one of them including yours had one thing in common. These people have all have done jail time and it was in prison that their reformation took place.


It's an interesting observation but I would think that if that was the case, the pattern would have been obvious to those who have been researching this phenomenon. I'm inclined to think it was not mentioned by the researchers because there is not much of a link there.

The key thing that I see is that in our modern society, people join these kinds of hate groups out of a sense of isolation. The hate groups exploit that and give them a sense of belonging to something. Going around punching them is very unlikely to make them feel less isolated from civil society, don't you think?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:20 am 
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Going around punching them is very unlikely to make them feel less isolated from civil society, don't you think?


Yes, good point, Yov.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:39 pm 
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yovargas wrote:
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Spoiler alert - he was wrong.



But.... you don't actually know that? I don't know what this particular individual did but what if his attempts at kindness and empathy convinced five people to not join in on the violence, when anger and violence would have stopped none?


That is certainly a novel take on the history of the Holocaust.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:56 pm 
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My post was, of course, referring to this man's actions before the Holocaust. Do you think if men like him had called for punching Nazis in 1935 instead that he would have been any more successful? It seems doubtful.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:15 pm 
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I feel that we are talking about different things.

On one side, the examples touted are when one member of a “Nazi” group is taken away from the influence of its group and with empathy, and talk, shown that his beliefs are wrong.

On the other side, the argument hinges upon the fact that a Nazi group - in large numbers and when *institutionalized* - is extremely less likely to empathy, however meek and talkative the suppressed number might be.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:39 am 
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At the same time, even if compassion and empathy don't work at dissuading large-scale Nazi movements that doesn't mean that violence necessarily will.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:03 pm 
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So if non-violence doesn't work and violence doesn't work what do we do? Surrender to the bastards?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:06 pm 
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We persist. Persist in opposition, persist in speaking out, persist in making our presence and numbers known.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:26 pm 
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Do you think they are listening?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:46 pm 
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We make them irrelevant.

The Nazis prevailed in Germany because enough people liked what they were saying enough to join them and enough other people just didn't care enough one way or the other. The way to stop them is not to punch them or otherwise engage in gratuitous violence (as opposed to self-defense or defense of others). The way to stop them is to provide viable alternatives based in love, not in hate or fear. And the first step to doing that is for each person to work to be the best person that he or she can be.

God knows, I have a long way to go!

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:11 pm 
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:hug:

The point is to persist in the hope that others of good will are listening and will join the effort. We can't change the hearts and minds of people who have neither one. We can beat them, though, if enough of us care and turn out to vote.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:33 am 
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I actually don't think it even needs to be an alternative based in love and compassion. An alternative based in the simple ideas which have made post-Enlightenment western civilisation successful - universal human rights, individual liberty, evidence-based policy-making, constitutional government - should be sufficient. It's not a hard sell, which is why these movements don't exactly have a huge following.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:25 pm 
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Until suddenly, somehow, they’re in charge.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:27 pm 
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The original Nazis flourished in the country that prided itself on being the land of Goethe and Kant. One could argue that it was the Enlightenment that moved Germany in the direction of political and cultural unity, and the idea of the enlightened but strong leader.

Or maybe we can blame the Romantics.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:48 pm 
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Túrin Turambar wrote:
I actually don't think it even needs to be an alternative based in love and compassion. An alternative based in the simple ideas which have made post-Enlightenment western civilisation successful - universal human rights, individual liberty, evidence-based policy-making, constitutional government - should be sufficient. It's not a hard sell, which is why these movements don't exactly have a huge following.


Seriously? Can you see what’s going on around the world?

It’s a VERY hard sell when it comes down to people perceiving that their way of life is under threat from “others”. And all it takes is a constraint in resources, a persistent downward swing in disposable income and life standards, and any possible group to make into “other”.

We’ve been talking about Nazis and Germany - but examples abound around the world, around history. Heck - how were the Jim Crow laws any different?

It takes generations to change it slowly, based on ideas, and appealing to some belief of equality in the powerful group (that is, if it even exists). And in those generations, generations are lost.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:00 pm 
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There were about 500 White Nationalist demonstrators at the 'Unite the Right' rally in Charlottesville, and they were almost immediately outnumbered by counter-protestors. I'm far from convinced the far right has all that much support in the U.S. (or the rest of the English-speaking world).


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:17 pm 
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While that is very true, it is also by all accounts growing, both here and in Europe. Even if one doesn't think they stand much chance of gaining any real power, it is a troubling trend.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:03 pm 
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Túrin Turambar wrote:
There were about 500 White Nationalist demonstrators at the 'Unite the Right' rally in Charlottesville, and they were almost immediately outnumbered by counter-protestors. I'm far from convinced the far right has all that much support in the U.S. (or the rest of the English-speaking world).


My POINT was that the beliefs of nazism are not embodied by only flag-carrying Nazis.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:07 pm 
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What Inanna said. Nobody knows how many people are silently agreeing with the white nationalists.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:20 pm 
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Well, we do know to some extent. While its not all of the people who voted for Trump, there is a high percentage who voted for him mostly because they agree with concept of "Make America Great Again" which really means "Make America White Again" to a very great extent. Same with Brexit voters in the UK. And everyone else around the world who are afraid of "the other".

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